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Have you ever wondered why some conversations flow effortlessly while others feel stilted and awkward? In this episode of Transacting Value, we dive into a captivating discussion with Dr. Amanda Kenderes about her transformative talk type model. Through her research, she established a framework that reveals how our preferences in communication impact our social dynamics—especially for those who experience social anxiety. Join us for this enlightening journey and discover how your voice aids in crafting your identity while connecting authentically with others.
(20:29) https://porthouse.kw.com/
(31:18) https://www.passiton.com/
Learn more about Amanda and Talk Types by visiting https://talktypes.com/.
To purchase Amanda’s book “Talk Types: How What We Say Reveals Who We Are” you can visit her website https://amandakenderes.com/ or Amazon.com.
Looking for more perspective, empowerment, and self-worth?
For a chance to hear your question answered on the air, remember to Subscribe and Leave a Voice Message at TransactingValuePodcast.com!
We'll meet you there.
An SDYT Media Production I Deviate from the Norm
All rights reserved. 2021
Transcript
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The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience.
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Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity.
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My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character.
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This is why values still hold value.
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This is Transacting Value.
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For social anxiety.
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When we have a combination of a boosted confidence plus an extended vocabulary to help us understand and navigate talk and social interactions, we approach the situation from a very different place.
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Today on Transacting Value.
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What if you could find identity and manage anxiety, all by framing how you speak?
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Professor of social sciences and author of how what we Say Reveals who we Are.
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And author of how what we Say Reveals who we Are.
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Dr Amanda Kanderis says it's not only possible, it's teachable.
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And because our values are woven into our talk types, we're going to talk all about it.
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I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and from SDYT Media.
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This is Transacting Value, amanda how you doing.
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Hey, josh, so good to be here.
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Thank you for having me.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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I appreciate you taking time out of your schedule.
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I see you're not necessarily at office hours right now, so you got some time off today, or what's going on?
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Yeah, wednesdays are good for me right now, but you know that changes every semester.
00:02:05.769 --> 00:02:10.496
Yeah, I bet, I bet, we got the holidays coming up now, at least as of this recording.
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So looking forward to a break.
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Oh, don't we all.
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It's so nice to just be able to unwind, and I love Christmas time.
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I really do.
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It just takes me back to my childhood and I love it.
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I love every moment of it.
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Now you, from what I understand, traveled a lot.
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Speaking of your childhood, I think it was for your dad's work, if I remember what we spoke about.
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So let's just start there, because you've got a lot of interwoven complexity throughout your story and I think it's going to speak pretty heavily towards some of these topics about values and talk types and how people communicate effectively.
00:02:53.370 --> 00:02:54.492
So let's just start there for a couple minutes.
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Who are you, where are you from and what sort of things are fueling your perspective on social sciences and why it's important?
00:03:01.646 --> 00:03:04.171
Yeah, so, yeah, some big questions.
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Um, who am I?
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Uh, yeah, well, depends.
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There's so many ways to answer that.
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Right, this is a continually evolving answer.
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But I grew up internationally.
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Uh, you're right, it was my dad's job.
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He, he worked for the us embassy, and so I grew up in north and South America, asia, africa, europe.
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Every three years, my family moved to a new continent, so really the only constant was change in a really big way.
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And so I realized that if I was going to have an enjoyable time in any one place, I was going to need to learn to connect quickly.
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And I asked myself you know well how do we connect through talk.
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So what happened, just by virtue of my situation, is I became a student of communication, because if I could talk better, I could connect better.
00:04:09.455 --> 00:04:17.365
So I started to try out different kinds of talk with people.
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See what works, try, you know, try what I liked, try to learn what others liked.
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And the more I experimented, the more questions I developed, and over the years I ended up initially I had more questions than answers, as it goes, but then I ended up developing the talk type model as an answer to all the questions, the collection of the questions that I had asked for 15 years, and some of these questions were you know, why is it that we can walk into a crowded room, start a conversation with somebody and just connect really easily, lose a sense of time An hour can go by and we're so engaged and interested.
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And then, with somebody else, it takes work to think of things to say and to keep the conversation going.
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Why is that?
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Well, maybe the person that we talked to for the hour.
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They're just really easy to talk to, okay, but then why doesn't this other person also find them easy to talk to?
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Because they don't.
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Why is this person laughing at my joke, but not that one?
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Why do we have different preferences in books or movies?
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Why do we have different tastes in music?
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So, basically, any area where that communication touch, I questioned it.
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I mean, that's virtually every area, from direct speech and conversation to reading, writing, even Braille and sign language, music, podcasts, movies and body language, tone of voice, all those you know called para-language.
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So yeah, after all of this observation and experimentation, I realized that really, people only talk for three reasons, three fundamental reasons.
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That is it.
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And the reason that we have different, that we connect with people differentially is because we may or we may not share a preference.
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We may not rank those three reasons the same.
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When we do rank them by preference, we get six talk types.
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There are six ways to rank three variables.
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Six ways to rank everybody.
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Yeah To every variable.
00:07:04.345 --> 00:07:06.389
Three variables what do you mean?
00:07:06.389 --> 00:07:07.252
Let's start there.
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What are you talking about?
00:07:08.884 --> 00:07:11.692
So are the three ways of the three reasons for talking.
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We talked for three reasons.
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Fundamentally, all people across the globe, and I refer to these three ways in different, or these three reasons in different ways.
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So in shorthand, I call them A, b and C.
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We can also call them informing, relating and meaning-making.
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And technically, a is objective understanding, b is subjective experiencing and C is subjective understanding.
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Those are the technical terms.
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But these three reasons for talking, when we rank them by preference, we end up with six talk types, which is our home base.
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They're like archetypes that just showcase what we like.
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So, yeah, three communication styles, or six communication styles, as it were.
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So some people prefer factual talk, some people prefer relating, where they ask you know, how was your weekend, what did you do?
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Did you have fun?
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And other people prefer the deep, you know meaning of life, questions or personal growth, that kind of stuff, and we don't like them all the same, incidentally.
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And when we look at them, yeah, it's a predictor of connection.
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It's also a predictor of potential conflict.
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There's a lot there, but that's just the start.
00:08:43.581 --> 00:08:46.041
Alrighty, folks sit tight, We'll be right back on Transacting Value.
00:08:48.566 --> 00:09:09.982
Join us for Transacting Value, where we discuss practical applications of personal values, every Monday at 9am on our website transactingvaluepodcastcom, Wednesdays at 5pm and Sundays at noon on wreathsacrossamericaorg slash radio at noon on wreathsacrossamericaorg slash radio.
00:09:10.003 --> 00:09:11.326
When we look at them, yeah, it's a predictor of connection.
00:09:11.326 --> 00:09:13.714
It's also a predictor of potential conflict.
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There's a lot there, but that's just the start.
00:09:16.301 --> 00:09:16.922
Yeah.
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Yeah, okay, but this is you at I don't know 15 years old, let's say, trying to figure out how to put those concepts into these words, and then, over the last I don't know 15 years old, let's say, trying to figure out how to put those concepts into these words, and then, over the last I'm assuming 15 to 25 years, you figure it out and you put it in a book.
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Well, what does it?
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Do you know what I mean?
00:09:35.847 --> 00:09:57.293
Knowledge without application, I think, tends to be a waste of your time, right, and so you identify these things, but did it help you have conversations, or help you make friends or start relationships, or was it more content that just happened to be accurate?
00:09:59.100 --> 00:10:11.071
Well, I mean, I guess the honest answer is I think it's both A lot of times we're searching for answers to questions and we honestly don't know what all the applications are going to be.
00:10:11.071 --> 00:10:14.224
It's sort of like the laser.
00:10:14.224 --> 00:10:23.606
The laser now has God only knows how many applications you know in medicine, in science, in education, I mean in.
00:10:23.606 --> 00:10:28.416
You know in medicine and science in education, I mean in auto mechanics.
00:10:28.416 --> 00:10:32.842
I mean you could just fill in the blank aerospace, engineering, whatever.
00:10:32.842 --> 00:10:36.732
But when the laser first came out, nobody knew what to do with it.
00:10:36.732 --> 00:10:42.889
In fact it was nicknamed the solution looking for a problem.
00:10:44.511 --> 00:10:44.893
Interesting.
00:10:45.813 --> 00:10:58.788
Yeah, so sometimes when new models, theories, innovations, inventions come out, people don't immediately know what to do with them.
00:10:58.788 --> 00:11:05.530
I think that that's fair and those applications can reveal themselves over time.
00:11:05.530 --> 00:11:27.009
Now, that said, I have had some time, but it's been my own personal interaction with the talk type model and the experiences that I have with it and the applications I've been able to use it for may be different from what many other people.
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You know their experience, and so time will tell.
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But for me, the first thing that it did for me was to help me to feel a sense of belonging.
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This was a major shift for me, longing.
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This was a major shift for me because I really loved deep talks.
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So I would just, you know, I figured why, why bother with the small talk?
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Let's just skip the small talk and go straight to the deep talk.
00:12:02.625 --> 00:12:18.686
So on the playground in elementary school, I would be asking the kids, my peers, about their home lives and how happy oh, I was not.
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Yeah, I figured, once you go down the slide, once you know what it's like.
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So I preferred to sit in the shade under the wooden playground set and just have conversations with people.
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I was that kid that just liked to observe.
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I wasn't a loner.
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I had friends, but the friends that I tended to make, because most of the kids around me didn't really love these kinds of talks.
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I just ended up learning what they like to do and going along with it, and it was fine, it was acceptable, but I knew that it wasn't fully me.
00:13:04.268 --> 00:13:08.017
It was fine, it was, it was acceptable, but I knew that it wasn't fully me.
00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:13.799
After I tried this out with the kids on the playground um, you know, jump into the deep talks I thought, well, maybe this isn't for kids, maybe this is more of a grownup thing.
00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:16.123
So I tried it out with some of the grownups in my life.
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So, um, teachers, parents, uh, well, my parents, I, um, my dad was was my deep talk buddy, but outside of home, parents, coaches, bus drivers, this sort of thing and I would jump right in with them and I would ask questions like what's happiness?
00:13:35.594 --> 00:13:44.052
And if they were married, I would ask how did you know you'd found the one as a kid?
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Oh yeah, oh yeah.
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How did you know you'd found the one?
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Was it a kid?
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No, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh.
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That was I mean from elementary school on.
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So it didn't go over super well with the adults and I actually got really down because I thought, well, gee, if this isn't, you know, deep talks, it's not for kids, most kids.
00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:14.903
I mean it's for me, I'm a kid, but okay, it's not for most kids.
00:14:14.903 --> 00:14:17.067
And most of the adults that I talked to weren't into it either.
00:14:17.067 --> 00:14:21.725
Now, granted, this is from my own limited kind of perspective.
00:14:21.725 --> 00:14:27.162
Maybe those adults would have been more inclined to have those conversations with another adult.
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Maybe you know part of what was you know in inhibiting that was that I was eight years old and they didn't know how to.
00:14:34.985 --> 00:14:38.032
So so that could have been happening.
00:14:38.032 --> 00:15:09.336
But in my in it, from my vantage point, with my logic, I thought there, I thought there's no space for me, I don't belong here, and I ended up just kind of performing my way through the rest of elementary school, middle school, high school and finally, at 19, I had an argument with my dad that ended up leading to the epiphany of the talk types.
00:15:10.562 --> 00:15:11.346
An argument did.
00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.871
Sometimes it's those negative things that end up being your best kind of positive.
00:15:18.871 --> 00:15:21.166
Yeah Turned into a positive moment.
00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:25.450
Well, so here's something for you that I haven't told you yet.
00:15:25.450 --> 00:15:44.751
You and I first spoke I don't remember exactly call it a month ago, and since then I went through your book and for anybody listening to this or watching this conversation, I have no reason to tell you it was good, except for the fact it was.
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I've never met you outside of these conversations.
00:15:46.908 --> 00:15:48.125
I don't know you personally.
00:15:48.125 --> 00:15:48.547
You know what I mean.
00:15:48.547 --> 00:15:52.190
So this is about as objective an unbiased opinion I can give you.
00:15:52.190 --> 00:16:03.514
It's probably the most accurate thing I've ever read and then inadvertently, unwittingly, put into practice that actually applies accurately.
00:16:03.514 --> 00:16:08.601
Put into practice that actually applies accurately.
00:16:08.621 --> 00:16:15.332
Everybody I've talked to over the last month has so far fit very well into your categories and what it's done for me.
00:16:15.332 --> 00:16:16.855
You mentioned belonging.
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I didn't really care to belong into any of these conversations or relationships, which was part of the problem I started to zone out.
00:16:23.443 --> 00:16:32.666
But the more I started to pick up on the pattern of, okay, wait a minute, this is a little bit more subjective but not quite as deep.
00:16:32.666 --> 00:16:42.482
Or this small talk maybe that I thought was, I don't know impertinent, happened to be a little bit more objective than what I was prepared to talk about.
00:16:42.482 --> 00:16:53.828
It gave me a minute to reorient how I was perceiving the conversation and develop some patience and some insight and humility, I guess, and get over my own ego.
00:16:53.828 --> 00:17:00.832
So from that point first, before we go any further, I think you're onto something.
00:17:00.832 --> 00:17:02.984
I think it was pretty accurate.
00:17:04.207 --> 00:17:05.369
Thank you.
00:17:05.671 --> 00:17:13.701
You're welcome, but that brings me to my next question.
00:17:13.701 --> 00:17:14.443
That's just my experience, right?
00:17:14.443 --> 00:17:29.392
So, understanding what we talked about a little bit earlier, understanding that how people talk or, more specifically, how what we say can reveal who we are, not who, or how other people speak and talk, or who they are, what does it do for us as the individual, better understanding how we prefer to speak?
00:17:29.392 --> 00:17:35.491
How does that help us develop an identity or control over ourselves?
00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:40.763
Yeah, so there's so much here to unpack.
00:17:40.763 --> 00:17:50.660
But first of all, we could start out with the idea that, um, communication is how we interface with the world.
00:17:50.660 --> 00:18:41.564
So if we have a better understanding of communication, we have a better understanding of any area of life that communication touches, which is virtually everything, from our interpersonal conversations and relationships to, uh, from our interpersonal conversations and relationships to our coworkers and colleagues to work, to the people we meet on the preferences, our sense of humor, our sense of how we define what it means to be known, to know and be known to understand and to be understood.
00:18:41.564 --> 00:18:58.454
You know the activities we delight in, how we spend our leisure time, how we recuperate when we're tired, emotionally, physically, psychologically, what energizes us and gives us, brings us joy.
00:18:58.454 --> 00:19:10.919
All of these areas are touched by the talk types and more, because communication finds us in each of those areas.
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:22.458
So let's take an example the three communication categories, abc, so informing, relating, meaning, making.
00:19:22.458 --> 00:19:28.026
We can think of that as factual talk, maybe small talk and deep talk.
00:19:28.026 --> 00:19:36.964
Just you know if we want to really kind of give it an easy nickname.
00:19:36.964 --> 00:19:49.645
And but these three communication categories are really drives, three different drives.
00:19:49.645 --> 00:19:57.113
Drives, three different drives.
00:19:57.113 --> 00:20:01.063
What drives us to talk is actually a deeper drive of what are we looking for in life, why do we do what we do?
00:20:01.063 --> 00:20:18.305
So if you have A in your talk type, objective understanding, informing, factual talk we have that we're looking to objectively understand and to be objectively understood when we listen.
00:20:18.305 --> 00:20:21.397
So this not only impacts how we talk but how we listen to others.
00:20:22.059 --> 00:20:22.781
Well, that's interesting.
00:20:24.971 --> 00:20:27.440
All right, folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.
00:20:29.670 --> 00:20:35.502
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So if you have A in your talk type objective understanding, informing factual talk, we have that we're looking to objectively understand and to be objectively understood when we listen.
00:21:32.521 --> 00:21:35.557
So this not only impacts how we talk but how we listen to others.
00:21:36.219 --> 00:21:36.941
Well, that's interesting.
00:21:38.651 --> 00:21:43.644
We're listening for factual information anytime people are talking.
00:21:43.644 --> 00:22:05.942
And if somebody's doing small talk or talking about oh, this is my favorite movie and I find it so funny in this scene when this happens Well, there's no real facts there for that person to take in, it's just somebody's opinion, subjective experience.
00:22:05.942 --> 00:22:08.598
Yeah, there's no objective facts there.
00:22:08.598 --> 00:22:37.211
So it would be easy for that person, the A, to just kind of check out if, if they're not intentional and aware of this talk type model, they might just check out and that would be, um, it would be unfortunate because the, the B, who's doing the small talk, is trying to connect yeah, same thing you know, with with the, with the C, if we skip to the sea, um, they're looking to subjectively understand.
00:22:37.211 --> 00:22:40.798
So they're looking for the deep questions and answers.
00:22:40.798 --> 00:22:46.653
Um, you know what really does lead to our growth as human beings?
00:22:46.653 --> 00:22:51.318
And, and sometimes it's challenges, often it's challenges.
00:22:51.318 --> 00:22:57.086
But can joy also lead to our growth?
00:22:57.086 --> 00:23:02.634
These fascinating conversations?
00:23:02.634 --> 00:23:07.644
There's no, maybe objective way to measure some of that stuff.
00:23:07.644 --> 00:23:13.664
That's the trouble with the social sciences.
00:23:13.664 --> 00:23:18.357
So we try to understand it subjectively as best we can.
00:23:18.357 --> 00:23:21.023
That's C, and these folks are listening for those reasons.
00:23:21.023 --> 00:23:28.176
Now, if we think about A and C as wanting to understand and be understood.
00:23:28.176 --> 00:23:37.414
What's A and C, what's B, bs, the, the relators, you know, who are into small talk or sharing their experiences.
00:23:37.414 --> 00:23:44.198
They aren't trying to make a deeper come to a draw deeper conclusions and come to a deep understanding.
00:23:44.198 --> 00:23:46.151
They're they're looking to be heard.
00:23:46.151 --> 00:23:48.296
That's it.
00:23:48.296 --> 00:23:50.121
They want to witness for what they're saying.
00:23:51.144 --> 00:24:05.843
One of the things that I just love about what this model does for us is that it shifts us away from some of the old, tired models of communication that we've grown up with and we've been taught in the classrooms.
00:24:05.843 --> 00:24:16.880
And one of the things that we hear over and over is if you want to be a better communication, if you want to improve your communication, what's one of the number one rules?
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:18.042
Don't interrupt.
00:24:18.042 --> 00:24:29.624
But here's the thing that only really applies to bees, because their objective, their goal for talking is to be heard.
00:24:29.624 --> 00:24:33.601
So, yeah, interrupting is antithetical to being heard.
00:24:34.170 --> 00:24:39.651
And if you interrupt a, b, they're probably going to think that you don't care or that you're not listening.
00:24:39.651 --> 00:24:45.279
But if your goal isn't to be heard, it's to be understood.
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:52.921
So, in other words, a's and C's If somebody interrupts you to say, hey, wait a minute, I didn't quite catch that.
00:24:52.921 --> 00:24:55.076
Could you explain that before we move on?
00:24:55.076 --> 00:24:58.224
I'm not upset at all if I'm an A or C.
00:24:58.224 --> 00:25:13.402
I'm thankful that I got interrupted, actually because now the interruption is working to further the objective or the top goal and it helps me to see that we're actually on the same page.
00:25:14.864 --> 00:25:22.636
Okay, all right, so I can appreciate there's a little bit of a values proposition behind some of the concepts, let's call it.
00:25:22.636 --> 00:25:39.540
But we had also talked a little bit earlier about how it can better manage social anxieties as well, and there's all sorts of what would you call them, all sorts of catalysts or causes or triggers.
00:25:39.540 --> 00:25:43.719
I guess for any of this anxiety to come up right, it could be an unfamiliar situation.
00:25:43.719 --> 00:25:49.019
It could be unfamiliar anything, I guess Situation, people, topics, whatever.
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:51.311
What does it do for that?
00:25:51.332 --> 00:25:52.913
Yeah, no social anxiety, it whatever.
00:25:52.913 --> 00:25:53.654
What does it do for that?
00:25:53.654 --> 00:25:54.557
Yeah, no, social anxiety.
00:25:54.557 --> 00:26:00.566
It's huge and it's particularly salient these days so many people seem to be having.
00:26:00.566 --> 00:26:08.470
Especially after COVID, it just, you know, the anxiety just kind of went up exponentially.
00:26:08.711 --> 00:26:25.132
So one of the reasons that we may have social anxiety, or anxiety in general, is we don't know what's going to happen, we don't know what to prepare for, and it's that unknown and that's scary.
00:26:25.132 --> 00:26:30.980
But here's the thing how do we tackle unknowing?
00:26:30.980 --> 00:26:34.263
We tackle unknowing by knowing.
00:26:34.263 --> 00:26:35.566
That's the antidote.
00:26:35.566 --> 00:26:42.423
If we don't know something, well then if we could just know it, we could relax a little bit more.
00:26:42.423 --> 00:26:57.755
You know, if somebody is financially stressed but I said, hey, you know, you're going to get $1,000 next week by Friday, or $10,000 or whatever they need, oh, okay, oh, now, all of a sudden, let's go have a sandwich, right?
00:26:58.155 --> 00:27:07.797
So I think one of the things that with social anxiety and what's involved in social relationships talk, communication, interaction.
00:27:07.797 --> 00:27:21.861
So if we can understand, talk better, then we can navigate it better and we're replacing unknown with you know, unknowing, with knowing, and that's huge.
00:27:21.861 --> 00:27:25.875
The other thing that it does is it validates us in that context.
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