Feeling the heat of anger bubbling beneath the surface can be a common yet unsettling experience. Together with Bronwyn Schweigert, a licensed therapist and specialist in the field of emotions, we tackle this fiery topic head-on. Anger often gets a bad rap, but we're turning the tables on that notion, delving into its role as a communicator in our interpersonal relationships and its potential to morph into anxiety or depression when ignored or suppressed.
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Feeling the heat of anger bubbling beneath the surface can be a common yet unsettling experience. Together with Bronwyn Schweigert, a licensed therapist and specialist in the field of emotions, we tackle this fiery topic head-on. Anger often gets a bad rap, but we're turning the tables on that notion, delving into its role as a communicator in our interpersonal relationships and its potential to morph into anxiety or depression when ignored or suppressed.
Setting foot in a new job or navigating the choppy waters of authority can lead to an emotional undercurrent of feeling undervalued. As I recount my own journey through the trenches of an internship, we explore the emotional repercussions and the importance of advocating for oneself. It's a candid conversation that stretches to the structured environments of the military, where the parallels of adhering to authority and the impact on self-worth are strikingly similar.
The episode wraps up with a heartfelt look at the intricacies of parenting and leadership through the lens of personal experience and generational differences. We stress the significance of trust and communication, whether it's in raising children, commanding a platoon, or navigating the complexities of our relationships. From personal growth to overcoming internalized shame, Bronwyn and I offer a compassionate guide for walking through life's emotional minefields with self-awareness and integrity.
Bronwyn Schweigerdt | website & podcast
Together We Served (10:20) | website
Wreaths Across America Radio (21:53) | website
Developing Character (27:40)
US Department of Veteran's Affairs (32:06) | US-Vietnam War Commemoration
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All rights reserved. 2021
WEBVTT
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Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for personal values when dealing with each other and even within ourselves.
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Where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries and finding belonging.
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My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are your people.
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This is why values still hold value.
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This is Transacting Value.
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All of our children, if we're honest, are gonna disappoint us and that's our job to deal with that disappointment, because that disappointment is our feeling and it belongs to us and only we are responsible for our own feelings.
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Today on Transacting Value how to be, why to be, when to be angry at the right things.
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What does it even mean?
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What does it even look like?
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You want to yell into a pillow.
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You want to hit something.
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You want to break a window.
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You want to hit somebody?
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Maybe, maybe, start with you, because ultimately, whenever you're angry, maybe it's a you problem.
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And so our next contributor coming on the show, Bronwyn Schweigert, talks all about that on her podcast, angry at the Right Things.
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Now, she's also a licensed practicing therapist, so we're going to get into some of that.
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But while we're talking about how to instigate self-worth, the only real way to do that is to be more aware of how you come across to other people.
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But ultimately, what causes you to come across a particular way to somebody else?
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And we're going to get into all that.
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So, folks, without further ado, I'm Porter, I'm your host and this is Transacting Value.
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Bronwyn, how are you?
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Good, but I'm a little triggered right now, Josh, by what you said.
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Are you what happened?
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Yeah, because you said that it might be a you problem when you're angry, and I think that's that and I'm just using this to launch our conversation, but I think that's what most of our society tells us is hey, take some deep breaths, you're OK, it's not a big deal.
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You need to manage your anger.
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And I think anger is always rooted in a relational interaction and it's not just an intrapersonal problem, it's not just something that we alone should feel or have to be feeling.
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It's something rooted in a relationship.
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And so you know, when people tell me they're angry, the first thing I do is go yeah, I bet you're really angry.
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You have every right to feel angry, because feelings aren't right or wrong or good or bad.
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They just are and we need to validate them.
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And that's how people feel less angry is when they feel felt, when they feel heard, when they feel seen, when they feel validated by another person.
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And I was trained initially in techniques that we would call de-escalation.
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So, like first responders who go out to violent situations or potentially violent situations and those de-escalation techniques that they employ, you know they're talking to someone with a knife in their hand who's about to like use it on, maybe like their ex-girlfriend, and what they do is they say John, I don't blame you for being infuriated by Sue who cheated on you and you just found out.
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You have every right to feel so angry and I don't blame you for wanting to stab her with that knife you're holding.
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It's okay to feel angry and I get it, John.
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It makes complete sense given this level of betrayal.
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So when we validate people, it does the opposite.
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It's counterintuitive.
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It actually makes their anger diminish.
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When we say, hey, John, you need to, you know, manage your anger, then John's actually more angry.
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It's totally counterintuitive.
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So I just want to lead with that.
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Well, folks, Bronwyn, there we go.
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I appreciate the segue, though, because it is an important factor right In trying to well, for one, identify who everybody's listening to but I'll get there in just a second but for two, for context, to know what we're talking about.
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Because to say that I'm angry, I'm frustrated, I'm upset, I'm any other number of emotions, I think, can get conflated because we all have different backgrounds through which we're perceiving these terms.
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You know what I mean.
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So we don't all always speak the same language, and so what you say, you're feeling is X, I may think is Y, and now we're miscommunicating further.
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So I appreciate the point of clarity, but before we get further into this, Bronwyn, this is also an important point that we need to establish For everybody who's new to the show, all of our continuing listeners.
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They may not know you, they may not have listened to your show and may not recognize your name.
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So let's just take a couple minutes.
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First off, who are you, where are you from and actually, what sort of things have shaped your perspective?
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Absolutely.
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So, I am a licensed marriage and family therapist.
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I'm in Sacramento, California, and I'm an anger expert.
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And the reason I became an expert in anger is because it seems to be ubiquitously the one thing that everyone gets wrong, and that includes the therapist.
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So my crusade is to help people really understand how anger works and what it is, because it seems like the biggest, most misinformed theme that I hear what we do with our anger and also misunderstood how what anger is what it isn't.
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Most people equate it with violence or verbal violence, you know, exploding, and and yet I have seen it since I started as a therapist as actually depression, and I've experienced this firsthand as well.
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Depression, anxiety, in my view, are absolutely suppressed anger and Freud is the first to say this, he would say depression is anger turned inward, and I've personally experienced depressive episodes that I look back in retrospect I'm like, oh my God, that was absolutely my anger suppressed in my body for that period of time.
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And I have a lot of clients come to me.
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A lot of them have severe anxiety.
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Their own relationship with their anger is so diminished, and so my goal is to help people develop a healthy relationship with anger.
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So we all have anger.
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All humans have anger.
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There's no such thing as an angry person.
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That's like saying, well, I'm not a breathing person, okay, everyone who's human is gonna experience anger.
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That's like a normal human response to things that are disappointing or frustrating or not ideal, which is most of our lives actually relationally and just daily life, and so we need to heal our relationship to our anger and respond to it in a healthy way.
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Hmm, okay, I've got a.
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Yes, you could say it in a healthy way.
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Okay, I've got a.
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I guess you could say it's a question.
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What are your thoughts?
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So as we grow?
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I'm not a therapist, I'm not a philosopher, I'm not any of these things.
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In fact, most of my career has been with the Marine Corps infantry.
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So, if anything, at best sort of more of an armchair quarterback barracks lawyer.
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But let's just break this down for a second.
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So when you're talking about getting angry at something, anything, whatever it is, whatever the catalyst is, with whomever it may involve, if most of our life is trying to, you know, make sense of this cosmic chaos of the world and tie it down to patterns we can understand through biases or whatever perspectives we've built, on imitation or as we've grown up or whatever applies.
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What is anger from that lens, conflict and being able to interpret any of those stimuli or frustration, or is it you've breached a threshold of being able to tolerate confusion?
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What is the anger?
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threshold of being able to tolerate confusion.
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What is the anger?
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Yeah, well, I would say first of all, anger is what you know people in the psychology world consider a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion.
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So we like to say that what is important is under the anger.
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So most of the anger we experience there's another primary emotion under the anger, and so when you're working with, like other people, I found the most common primary emotions under their anger in relationships are feelings of rejection, perceived rejection, which isn't always the same as actual rejection, and then feelings of betrayal.
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So those are the primary emotions and we see so much anger as a secondary outcome.
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So, for example, Josh, like if we're talking right now and I'm sharing something really important to me, and then I find you like looking away whether that's at the clock or your phone or whatever I might feel like perceived rejection because of my own childhood experiences and that's a trigger, but it's a perceived rejection trigger and so I might get really angry at you and then that's not the best response because then you're gonna defend and then we're gonna get in a big, it's gonna escalate.
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But if you can look at me and say, Bronwyn, I hear how angry you are that I looked away and maybe that felt like in that moment when I did that, maybe you felt like you didn't matter to me and I really just want you to know that you didn't matter to me and I really just want you to know that you absolutely do matter and I'm so sorry I had to check the time because I have something in the oven and I'm really sorry.
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I bet that was hard, but I I hear that this is really important thing that you're sharing with me and I just want to reinforce that.
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I just want to reassure you that I am listening and it really matters to me what you're sharing with me.
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So, ta-da, like the anger's gone because we got to the root problem.
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There's always a root, in other words, there's always a root to the anger All right, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.
00:10:20.985 --> 00:10:22.327
This message is brought to you by TogetherWeServed.
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com.
00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:23.554
Ta-da, like the anger's gone Because we got to the root problem.
00:11:23.554 --> 00:11:24.076
There's always a root.
00:11:24.076 --> 00:11:24.859
In other words, there's always a root.
00:11:24.859 --> 00:11:29.328
In other words, there's always a root to the anger and then betrayal could be.
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You know, one of my very severe depressive episodes began with I had a supervisor, and this is when I was first starting as an intern, as a therapist, and I think I just we have these expectations on people that we don't realize we have.
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They're implicit, you know, and I didn't really think through it, but I assumed, and I therefore had these expectations, that this supervisor, who was a licensed therapist and my supervisor, would be really like attuning to me, that he would really make me feel like I mattered and my thoughts mattered, my feelings matter, and and that was not my experience of him Um, the first thing that happened was he told me that my first client ever was going to be a couple.
00:12:15.865 --> 00:12:22.206
And that's actually like never a good idea when you're just starting out in therapy to see a couple.
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That's like next level, you have to get special training for that.
00:12:24.974 --> 00:12:25.942
But anyway, he said, yeah, it's going to be a couple, that's like next level, you have to get special training for that.
00:12:25.942 --> 00:12:28.327
But anyway, he said, yeah, it's going to be a couple.
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And I said, Dave, I don't feel ready, I don't think I can do that.
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And he said, yeah, you're going to do it.
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And so in that moment I didn't feel entitled to defend myself or advocate for myself.
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I didn't feel entitled, even though I wasn't getting paid, because most interns don't get myself.
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I didn't feel entitled, even though I wasn't getting paid, because most interns don't get paid.
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I didn't feel entitled at that moment to say you know what, Dave, if that's the case, if you're not honoring and respecting my limitations and my feelings, I'm going to look for an internship placement elsewhere, because this is not a good fit.
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If I had done that, I never would have descended into a major depressive episode.
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But I didn't feel entitled to connect to my own feeling of betrayal by this boss, who was a licensed therapist, who I really just assumed would make me feel like I mattered.
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And I didn't.
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And so in that process I betrayed myself.
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I just pretended like I didn't care.
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I went ahead and I saw the couple.
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I did horribly and it became a cycle.
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But I betrayed myself because I allowed myself to be betrayed by him and I didn't stand up for myself.
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It doesn't sound like you.
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Maybe you knew better, but you didn't recognize that you knew better at the time.
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I think a lot of that happens.
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I mean, we're any industry, we're new.
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You just you imitate what you think is the way to do things and you don't know enough to question any differently.
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That's true.
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Plus, he's an authority figure and we all, I believe, relate to authority figures, like there our parents.
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We don't realize we're doing that in the moment and I think I was very much daddying on him and just going okay, you're the boss, I want your approval.
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Right right.
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It's what is my priority is to win your approval, Dave, because you're the authority and therefore I'm projecting all my dad's stuff onto you right now.
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So I didn't feel entitled to go.
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Hey, you're human, I'm human, we're equals, we're peers and I'm really feeling resentful, Dave.
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And I'm really feeling resentful, Dave, that this is happening.
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And so I'm gonna either be assertive and say no, I'm sticking with my feelings of inadequacy here and I'm not gonna do it.
00:14:31.977 --> 00:14:40.250
That would be assertive speech or a boundary like hey, maybe this isn't a good fit, Maybe I need to look for another place to work as an intern.
00:14:40.250 --> 00:14:46.260
So that's me just channeling my anger in a healthy way, that's having a healthy relationship to anger.
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It wouldn't be attacking him verbally, it wouldn't be blowing up, it would just be going.
00:14:52.734 --> 00:14:53.581
You know what, Bronwyn?
00:14:53.581 --> 00:15:06.330
It's okay to feel angry right now because he is kind of betraying you as your authority figure right now, and you can be angry and you can channel it with assertive speech or boundaries or some type of accountability.
00:15:07.041 --> 00:15:11.471
Had you spoken with him after about any of these things that were in your head or since?
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Things just went on a downward spiral from there and that took like months, yeah, but yeah, it was pretty horrible actually.
00:15:20.188 --> 00:15:21.000
Yeah, well, I was.
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I was curious because that happens, I think, at least in my experience growing up in the Marine Corps all the time.
00:15:28.128 --> 00:15:30.839
It's just you know, it's all you know.
00:15:30.839 --> 00:15:30.960
You.
00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.750
You graduate from recruit training, you go through whatever secondary school.
00:15:34.750 --> 00:15:45.251
You've got infantry, maybe it's tanks, maybe it's artillery, maybe it's whatever occupational field you're you're pursuing, but you get through that course and this is regardless of whatever branch.
00:15:45.251 --> 00:15:51.788
And then by the time you get into we call it the fleet, but like the real big element outside of a training environment, right.
00:15:51.788 --> 00:15:58.769
So in the Marine Corps you get into the fleet, marine Force essentially, and and you're the new guy you know like.
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You've made it through all this training and accomplished everything your parents and everybody says you have at 18, 19, 17, 25, whatever age.
00:16:05.979 --> 00:16:06.721
You started all this.
00:16:06.721 --> 00:16:11.255
And then you show up, especially in the infantry, and you haven't done anything to earn it.
00:16:11.255 --> 00:16:15.495
You maybe have, but theoretically you haven't because you haven't deployed yet.
00:16:15.495 --> 00:16:16.589
We don't know how much.
00:16:16.589 --> 00:16:18.307
You know A lot of that.
00:16:18.346 --> 00:16:33.187
Threshold, similar to what you brought up, can be frustrating, but you don't think to question it generally, or at least that used to be the case, I think, more predominantly than it is now, but you don't think to question it because it's the culture you're assuming you got into.
00:16:33.187 --> 00:16:34.510
You're like well, this is just how it is here.
00:16:34.510 --> 00:16:51.804
And I think for me now, 14 years into my career in the, the beginning, in the infantry, that's exactly how I took it and it was my coping mechanism to make excuses and then to deal with my frustration.
00:16:51.804 --> 00:16:58.371
I'd just go to the gym, I'd find an outlet or, you know, I'd go work out or I'd go do something physical, and it was fine at the time.
00:16:58.371 --> 00:17:26.038
What I didn't realize until I got divorced and lost a whole bunch of money and everything started to spiral in terms of how I viewed myself and my identity and my own coping strategies as being or maybe ineffective, was that that was not the right strategy to have taken, because all I was really doing was, I think in hindsight, creating this physical outlet for my own anger management, but never really addressing root causes.
00:17:26.038 --> 00:17:29.251
It was all symptomatic sort of flair and it was great.
00:17:29.251 --> 00:17:30.315
Don't get me wrong.
00:17:30.315 --> 00:17:43.089
I looked great, I felt good, I was in pretty great shape, but my mental and emotional health tanked my marriage and tanked my interpersonal relationships, and I didn't see a tie between the two until just the last couple of years, and that was over a decade ago.
00:17:44.387 --> 00:18:10.397
So I think exactly what you're saying is 100% accurate in, I'm assuming, multiple industries, but especially in the DOD, to my experience in the infantry, now saying that we get a lot I mean, I can't say all but a lot of now call it 17 to 20-year-olds who stand on a firmer footing of social awareness and emotional intelligence to what you're describing than where I was back then.
00:18:10.397 --> 00:18:17.692
What we don't have is a Marine Corps that's ready for that, everybody who's in some degree of a leadership position.
00:18:17.692 --> 00:18:18.634
Well, you have two options to deal with it.
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One is toughen up I can.
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You have two options to deal with it.
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One is toughen up.
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I can't believe I have to deal with this.
00:18:23.449 --> 00:18:25.535
It's a new crop, it's a new generation.
00:18:25.535 --> 00:18:31.028
Other people's kids type comments right, and you just sort of dismiss it, and the other is okay.
00:18:31.048 --> 00:18:32.913
Well, what do I do with this?
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I see it's effective, I see it's helping, but I don't know you asking too many questions, because we need an instant willing obedience to orders in a tactical environment.
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I can't, I can't take extra seconds to explain things if we're getting shot at.
00:18:48.022 --> 00:18:52.828
And that's the baseline for training in the infantry, right, it's a war fighting function.
00:18:52.828 --> 00:18:55.775
So how do you balance the two, right?
00:18:55.775 --> 00:19:05.255
So there's, what was ignorance and a lack of education on a reception end is now, in my opinion, a more predominant ignorance and lack of education on a training end.
00:19:05.255 --> 00:19:16.438
But people's mindsets are shifting and so in your experience, let's just say, growing into this therapy career, not necessarily managing your emotions in that experience, isolated experience.
00:19:16.438 --> 00:19:20.853
Now, as a therapist, how do you bridge the gap?
00:19:20.853 --> 00:19:36.314
Because you're not just advising the people that are experiencing these and looking for the vocabulary and ways to communicate, you're indirectly also advising their spheres of influence, because they're going to communicate with them about what you've discussed, indirectly or directly, right?
00:19:36.314 --> 00:19:38.557
So how do you balance the two?
00:19:39.464 --> 00:19:53.055
Well, it's so interesting because I think what you're getting at is kind of happening society at large, like what people call the old school way, which is more authoritarian, and the newer way that you know my daughter's 20.
00:19:53.055 --> 00:19:58.832
Yeah, and the thing she just takes for granted about how society should work, I'm like, ok, those are all new to me.
00:19:58.832 --> 00:20:02.426
So, wow, yeah, how society should work.
00:20:02.426 --> 00:20:03.509
I'm like, okay, those are all new to me.
00:20:03.509 --> 00:20:03.770
So, wow, yeah.
00:20:03.770 --> 00:20:06.500
So these kind of more democratic expectations where everyone gets a voice, where everyone matters.
00:20:07.082 --> 00:20:23.468
And I think you know, kind of like with parenting, you don't want to be authoritarian, you want to be authoritative where you're still the authority, but you're not authoritarian, right, and so that's a nuanced approach where you're not permissive either, you're like the authority.
00:20:24.309 --> 00:20:35.785
And there's times where you're going to, you're going to build rapport, you're going to earn the child's trust, and that looks like, hey, Johnny, this is why we don't do that.
00:20:35.865 --> 00:20:44.443
So you know, earning Johnny's trust and respect by helping him understand it's not just because I say so, there's actually a really good reason.
00:20:44.945 --> 00:20:56.053
But there will be times when you just say that's a no and there's no explanation, because if you have built that rapport and earned that person's trust.
00:20:56.053 --> 00:21:10.709
There will be times when you're just like no, no explanation, no questions allowed, and that person, that child or that adult will trust you because you've earned that authority, you've earned that right to be their authority and they will be loyal.
00:21:10.709 --> 00:21:15.990
So it's not like every time you have to explain to your child.
00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:23.692
This is why, but if you do it, most of the time you're like a good enough parent, then you don't have to explain when it's an emergency.
00:21:23.692 --> 00:21:42.134
And I kind of imagine the same thing would happen even within the military, where if everyone gets a voice where their, their feelings matter most of the time, that loyalty, that rapport, that trust is going to be there for when you're out in the field and you just got to do what the commanding officer is saying to do.
00:21:42.134 --> 00:21:46.969
So it's kind of a big picture approach to how humans work.
00:21:46.969 --> 00:21:47.830
We're not robots.
00:21:48.874 --> 00:21:51.409
All righty, folks, sit tight, we'll be right back on Transacting Value.
00:21:53.474 --> 00:21:53.957
All righty folks.
00:21:53.957 --> 00:21:59.711
If you're looking for more perspective and more podcasts, you can check out Transacting Value on Wreaths Across America Radio.
00:22:03.645 --> 00:22:05.028
Listen in on iHeartRadio Odyssey and TuneIn.
00:22:05.028 --> 00:22:19.037
If everyone gets a voice where their feelings matter most of the time, that loyalty, that rapport, that trust is going to be there for when you're out in the field and you just got to do what the commanding officer is saying to do.
00:22:19.037 --> 00:22:23.847
So it's kind of a big picture approach to how humans work.
00:22:23.847 --> 00:22:24.710
We're not robots.
00:22:26.034 --> 00:22:34.416
Yeah, true, you know there's a very strong point you just mentioned that absolutely 100% resonates throughout every unit.
00:22:34.416 --> 00:22:38.128
I've been in the DOD, the Department of Defense, to this point in my career.
00:22:38.128 --> 00:23:01.798
If you take care of well, technically it's even in the Marine Corps it's a leadership principle know your men and look out for their welfare, and if you actually look out for them as people and the human condition and look out for their welfare, they will carry you across any finish line, absolutely guaranteed, as long as they realize you are.
00:23:01.798 --> 00:23:11.532
The other 50% of that equation is, if you know, sometimes the lessons taught aren't the lessons received, so effective communication plays a role too.
00:23:12.193 --> 00:23:17.729
For example, speaking of communication, you talked about parenting and you even got clips.
00:23:17.729 --> 00:23:27.260
Or you said as a marriage and family therapist, but you even got clips where you were talking about uh, this is on your website, actually, there's a, there's a youtube clip.
00:23:27.260 --> 00:23:38.934
You were talking about how, at various different points in your father's life, you had triggered him, or or your daughter had triggered you, or, and, yeah, that triangle of sound sensitivity.
00:23:38.934 --> 00:24:00.499
I think you described it as yeah, yeah, so things like that, especially in you know, first responders, the DOD, any of these types of call them frontline community servant positions we're not always at home to directly or even positively or, I guess, negatively impact and influence our kids lives as they grow up.
00:24:01.046 --> 00:24:12.136
There's a different calling that takes us away from home more often than it keeps us at home, and so, especially in my experience, I have a son and we've spent most of his life long distance, so we grew apart.
00:24:12.136 --> 00:24:19.574
The him he is now is not the him I knew him as, and the me that I am now is not the me that he knew me as.
00:24:19.574 --> 00:24:26.414
So we get on each other's nerves and we get frustrated with each other and we've got to find ways to talk through it and work through it and whatever.
00:24:26.414 --> 00:24:31.517
But what do you do in those situations when you don't know how to communicate it?
00:24:31.517 --> 00:24:38.974
And let's just say, as parents long distance parents, estranged parents, adoptive parents, step parents, biological parents, whatever how do?
00:24:38.994 --> 00:24:39.376
you do it.
00:24:39.376 --> 00:24:49.409
Yeah Well, I mean that you're going to find everywhere with any kind of parent Like, yeah, how do you relate to this person that you helped bring to the world?
00:24:49.409 --> 00:24:58.791
But they are not you at all and they're not your, they're not an extension of you as much as you wish they were their own unique, distinct self.
00:24:58.791 --> 00:25:03.038
How do you learn to interact with them?
00:25:03.038 --> 00:25:32.595
You know, I would say, kind of like you heard on that parenting clip, at the end I say you know it's the parent's job to learn to accept the inevitable disappointment that their child will bring them, because all of our children, if we're honest, are going to disappoint us and that's our job to deal with that disappointment, because that disappointment is our feeling and it belongs to us and only we are responsible for our own feelings.
00:25:32.595 --> 00:25:35.894
No one else is responsible for our feelings, including our kids.
00:25:35.894 --> 00:25:42.288
We are, and it's the parent's job to accept that disappointment that we all have if we're honest.
00:25:42.288 --> 00:25:44.390
And it's the kid's job.
00:25:44.390 --> 00:25:48.092
Their job description is to disappoint the hell out of the parent.
00:25:48.092 --> 00:26:19.595
Still heard, still seen, still acknowledged, still validated, still important to the parent, as different as he is and how disappointing he is, then that child gets the ego strength to disappoint the hell out of everyone else in order to not betray himself.
00:26:19.595 --> 00:26:28.766
So that means that child will have the ego strength to disappoint the hell out of his abusive boss, like, hey, I'm out of here, this is not a good fit.
00:26:28.766 --> 00:26:34.777
That child will have the ego strength to walk away from the abusive partner.
00:26:34.777 --> 00:26:43.210
That's the ego strength that our job is to give to our kid by saying you know what You're not the little mini me I wanted to see in the world.
00:26:44.132 --> 00:26:46.704
That's disappointing and that's my job to be okay with that.
00:26:46.704 --> 00:26:52.317
It's your job to be you and I still love you and I'm going to show you my love.
00:26:52.317 --> 00:26:56.919
Love is not a sentiment that I feel in my chest when I think about you.
00:26:56.919 --> 00:26:59.387
That's worthless and meaningless to someone else.
00:26:59.387 --> 00:27:01.554
What matters is love and action.
00:27:01.554 --> 00:27:02.596
Love is a verb.
00:27:02.596 --> 00:27:07.411
So I'm gonna show you that you are still loved by me by listening to you.
00:27:07.411 --> 00:27:21.512
Even though you might have very different ideologies than me on religion, on politics, I'm still gonna listen because that shows you that you matter to me, that I love you, that you're important, even if I don't agree.
00:27:21.512 --> 00:27:26.596
And actually, especially because I don't agree, you must really, really matter to me.
00:27:26.596 --> 00:27:29.569
I must really love you, and that is our job.
00:27:31.773 --> 00:27:32.596
Yeah, that's a cool point.
00:27:32.596 --> 00:27:35.148
I just wrote that down twice and underlined it.
00:27:35.148 --> 00:27:39.352
That brings up a perfect point, perfect time in the show for a segment called developing character.
00:27:39.294 --> 00:27:40.734
So we talked about being unique in this human condition and what Brings up a perfect point, perfect time in the show for a segment called Developing.
00:27:40.676 --> 00:27:41.644
Character, developing Character.
00:27:41.644 --> 00:27:52.258
So we talked about being unique in this human condition and what it's like to grow up, and you talked about ego, confidence and growing into our own, so to speak.
00:27:52.258 --> 00:28:00.078
For anybody new to the show, ronman included, and for any continuing listeners, this particular segment is two questions, all right.
00:28:00.078 --> 00:28:15.576
So, as vulnerable as you want to be, as in-depth as you want to answer, totally up to you, but this is about the value systems that you've adopted now into your perspective in order to derive some of that ego, confidence and, ultimately, I'm simultaneously using the term self-worth.
00:28:15.576 --> 00:28:23.218
So my first question what were some of the values that you grew up around that you were exposed to?
00:28:23.637 --> 00:28:27.788
for context, that's a good question, I would say.
00:28:27.788 --> 00:28:30.836
I mean, I was raised with religion.
00:28:30.836 --> 00:28:35.925
My dad is Jewish, although he didn't practice, and my mom raised me Catholic.
00:28:35.925 --> 00:28:53.813
I think when we talk about values and value systems, what's most meaningful is kind of like you were alluding to earlier is seeing our parents or our caregiver embodying what they say they believe, so modeling what we call modeling.
00:28:53.813 --> 00:29:02.777
And my parents didn't model whatever values they had very well at all, and you can listen all about that when you, if you listen to my podcast, I talk about them.
00:29:03.025 --> 00:29:44.270
But my grandfather, my mother's father, did the majority of raising me actually and that was a godsend and he just adored me and he made me just inherently feel like I did matter, because I mattered to him and it was evident, and so I think that was my biggest value is just, you know, feeling like everyone's voice does matter, because he taught me by listening to me, by by making my feelings and thoughts and needs a priority, that my voice and my thoughts and my feelings matter, and I think once a child learns that, inherently or implicitly, they start to go.
00:29:44.270 --> 00:29:45.934
Well, everyone's thoughts matter.
00:29:45.934 --> 00:29:48.186
That's just kind of the next logical step.
00:29:48.186 --> 00:29:56.849
And so, again, this is all like counterintuitive, because I don't think we learn values from someone saying Bronwyn, these are the values that we believe.
00:29:56.849 --> 00:29:59.094
It's what you experience.
00:29:59.094 --> 00:30:09.557
There's experiential values that really take place in our bodies, that we don't even have words for it, that really get embedded within us, you know.
00:30:10.846 --> 00:30:11.969
Okay, well then.
00:30:11.969 --> 00:30:13.251
So how has that shifted?
00:30:13.251 --> 00:30:15.798
My second question what are some of your values now?
00:30:16.605 --> 00:30:35.201
I'm a big believer in democracy because I love the Judeo-Christian tradition that has allowed us to even consider something like democracy, where every person is made equal in the image of God and therefore everyone matters, Everyone has a voice.
00:30:35.201 --> 00:30:39.700
So to me that's like a basic tenet of what I believe.
00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:41.305
To me that's like a basic tenet of what I believe.
00:30:41.305 --> 00:30:48.093
And so you know, as a therapist, when my clients come to me, I listen to them, I'll trust them until I have reason not to.
00:30:48.093 --> 00:30:49.590
But I start on that level.
00:30:49.590 --> 00:30:50.911
And there are therapists too.
00:30:50.911 --> 00:30:59.395
They start with not really trusting the client and not really believing them, and that's, to me, really counterproductive.
00:30:59.395 --> 00:31:01.752
I think people are innocent until proven guilty.
00:31:01.752 --> 00:31:10.433
So I'm going to listen to you and I'm going to believe your story and I'm going to believe you, and I think even that building that trust and that rapport is therapeutic.
00:31:11.267 --> 00:31:12.330
How do you foster that?
00:31:12.330 --> 00:31:18.035
And I guess, for clarity too, if we could use as a baseline for rapport.
00:31:18.035 --> 00:31:20.810
Let's just say what Trust and confidence in somebody else?
00:31:20.810 --> 00:31:26.517
Maybe trust in their ability to interpret what we're saying effectively and confidence they're not going to mishandle it?
00:31:26.517 --> 00:31:27.548
Maybe trust and confidence.
00:31:28.309 --> 00:31:31.176
Trust and confidence, or even like the story they share with me.
00:31:31.176 --> 00:31:37.708
Sometimes, you know, people want to make themselves look better when they're sharing their beef with someone else.
00:31:37.708 --> 00:31:42.520
I mean I'm no exception If I come to a new therapist sharing their beef with someone else.
00:31:42.520 --> 00:31:44.025
I mean, I'm no exception If I come to a new therapist.
00:31:44.025 --> 00:31:47.856
I might leave out some parts of my fight with my partner that I don't really want to want you to know.
00:31:47.856 --> 00:31:57.017
But I have found that the more I trust that person, over time I'm going to start sharing those harder things with them.
00:31:58.205 --> 00:31:59.130
All right, folks, stay tight.
00:31:59.130 --> 00:32:00.787
We'll be right back on Transacting Value.
00:32:06.855 --> 00:32:09.599
This message is from the US Department of Veterans Affairs.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:17.983
The US-Vietnam War Commemoration honors the service, valor and sacrifice of those who served during the Vietnam War.
00:32:17.983 --> 00:32:27.164
It also thanks the 7 million living Vietnam veterans and the families of all 10 million who served from 1955 to 1975.
00:32:27.164 --> 00:32:37.441
More than 3 million of the 7 million veterans have been thanked by friends and neighbors in thousands of ceremonies, but more must be recognized.
00:32:37.441 --> 00:32:44.431
Help reach Vietnam veterans in your families and neighborhoods, especially those living alone or in care facilities.
00:32:44.431 --> 00:32:49.895
They deserve to know that they've earned the nation's deepest gratitude and humble thanks.
00:32:49.895 --> 00:32:51.105
Visit VietnamWar50th.
00:32:51.105 --> 00:32:53.974
com for more information.
00:33:02.546 --> 00:33:10.474
I have found that the more I trust that person, over time I'm going to start sharing those harder things with them.
00:33:10.474 --> 00:33:18.496
So that rapport, that trust foundation, comes first, and then session three, session four, session five I'm going to start.
00:33:18.496 --> 00:33:23.772
Well, I think I actually do play more of a role than I've let you believe.
00:33:23.772 --> 00:33:26.914
So that's really what comes first, I think.
00:33:30.825 --> 00:33:31.267
What about in a family?
00:33:31.267 --> 00:33:38.410
We've got a lot of people throughout the DOD that get married younger than maybe the regular societal baseline here in the US for any number of reasons.
00:33:38.410 --> 00:33:44.690
But they do and oftentimes they don't always end in a long-term marriage, usually divorce.
00:33:44.690 --> 00:33:47.476
So what about in those cases?
00:33:47.476 --> 00:33:58.616
Is it just a matter of people don't get to know each other to that extent to trust each other and be that open, or that they've learned to communicate as effectively as maybe they could have first?
00:33:58.616 --> 00:34:01.532
How do we change the trend?
00:34:02.194 --> 00:34:06.928
So I used to be kind of a little bit more black and white about marriage and divorce than I am now.
00:34:06.928 --> 00:34:11.438
I mean, I'm a big believer in what is called a therapeutic divorce.
00:34:11.438 --> 00:34:29.510
Like if you're married to someone who is not willing to have insight into themselves, who is not willing to be self-aware, who plays the innocent victim 100% of the time, then it's time for a therapeutic divorce, because that doesn't sound like a workable relationship.
00:34:29.510 --> 00:34:36.733
That's not a relationship where you can trust that person, because they're in denial and denial is lying to yourself.
00:34:36.733 --> 00:34:39.487
So that trust really needs to be there in a marriage.
00:34:39.547 --> 00:34:46.418
And so if you marry young, or even marry before you really get to know that person, which we can say like, how can you really truly know a person before you really get to know that person?
00:34:46.418 --> 00:34:50.576
Which we can say like, how can you really truly know a person before you live with them for like years?
00:34:50.576 --> 00:34:53.585
Even I don't even know, we all know ourselves very well.
00:34:53.585 --> 00:35:05.655
But over time if you're like, oh, wow, you're really not the person I thought you were, I guess to me the bottom line is okay, I was not the person my husband thought I was.
00:35:05.655 --> 00:35:07.338
He wasn't the person I thought he was.
00:35:07.525 --> 00:35:11.291
I don't think any of us really know what we're signing up for, if we're honest.
00:35:11.291 --> 00:35:28.074
But to me the bottom line is is that partner willing to look at themselves, that willingness, that humility, that level of willingness and humility to have introspection, to have self-awareness?
00:35:28.074 --> 00:35:40.391
If someone is willing to do that that hard work of not being in denial about their own flaws and not deflecting all their problems onto their partner, then there's hope.
00:35:40.391 --> 00:35:50.548
And if there's not that humility and that willingness to be self-aware and own their own flaws and work through them, I don't think there is hope.
00:35:51.931 --> 00:35:53.635
Okay, what about?
00:35:53.635 --> 00:36:11.849
I guess the inverse of that equation right, it's we understand as individuals in any particular relationship personal, professional, you know, whichever that we have a role to play in these interactions and we maybe had a role to play in that argument or that situation.
00:36:11.849 --> 00:36:26.998
Sure, okay, but over time, if we don't catch on to it soon enough and this is just my perspective I guess it may be experienced to a degree, but if we don't catch on to that awareness soon enough, we start to believe what we're hearing.
00:36:26.998 --> 00:36:31.952
Onto that awareness soon enough, we start to believe what we're hearing, we start to get beat down and belittled and depressed and anxious.
00:36:31.952 --> 00:36:40.628
And maybe it is always my fault, maybe I am actually the only one causing these problems and there's no real boundaries or, like you said, ego confidence to push back.
00:36:40.628 --> 00:36:41.769
What then?
00:36:41.769 --> 00:36:44.353
That's a form of, obviously, of being angry.
00:36:44.353 --> 00:36:47.340
But how do we work through that from that perspective?
00:36:48.065 --> 00:36:49.431
That sounds more like shame.
00:36:49.431 --> 00:36:55.476
Shame, yeah and shame, I would say I guess we can call it an emotion.
00:36:55.476 --> 00:36:58.786
To me it's not really an emotion, we can feel it.
00:36:58.786 --> 00:37:08.440
But shame is kind of more like like if you have a whole scheme of colors, shame's like the color black, where it just that's all you see.
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:12.496
You can have all the colors and if black is overlying them, that's all you see.
00:37:13.164 --> 00:37:15.514
Shame is just like debilitating.
00:37:15.514 --> 00:37:34.936
So if you believe you're always the problem, or that you are the problem, that you are shameful, that you are inherently bad, then you will be in denial because it hurts so much to believe that and it's false because no one is inherently bad.
00:37:34.936 --> 00:37:35.838
I don't believe that.
00:37:35.838 --> 00:37:39.751
But shame will debilitate us and we won't be able.
00:37:39.751 --> 00:37:47.873
So shame is kind of like if I make a mistake and if I have a healthy ego I'm able to say, oh my God, I totally made a mistake.
00:37:47.873 --> 00:37:50.039
I'm human, humans make mistakes.
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:57.864
But if I'm dealing with shame, then making a mistake doesn't just say I wouldn't say I'm human, I made a mistake.
00:37:57.864 --> 00:38:00.994
I would say, oh my God, I made a mistake.
00:38:00.994 --> 00:38:03.052
Therefore I am a mistake.
00:38:03.052 --> 00:38:12.134
So now we're not able to have that healthy detachment from what we do, and our problems or flaws, we're just all that.
00:38:13.317 --> 00:38:13.556
Okay.
00:38:13.556 --> 00:38:19.150
So how does that fit in with like we talked about earlier, estranged relationships with kids?
00:38:19.150 --> 00:38:22.097
Or I mean, eventually those kids grow up.
00:38:22.097 --> 00:38:34.454
Some of us might be those kids right In any circumstance, and so you know, I just want my mom's approval, I just want to feel like I'm worth something.
00:38:34.454 --> 00:38:37.065
If I were there they wouldn't have died.
00:38:37.065 --> 00:38:45.989
You know, any other number of sort of guilt ridden causalities that could lead to that degree of shame is all of that intertwined.
00:38:46.010 --> 00:38:48.594
Yeah, I think I think so.
00:38:48.594 --> 00:38:53.965
So, first of all, I think shame is rooted in a lie, it's rooted in a distortion.
00:38:53.965 --> 00:38:57.773
I don't believe there's any human that is inherently shameful.
00:38:57.773 --> 00:39:01.469
I think we can act in ways that are truly shameful.
00:39:01.469 --> 00:39:10.608
I know I have and I probably still do, but we are not our behavior have and I probably still do but we are not our behavior.
00:39:10.628 --> 00:39:13.719
We are not the sum of our behavior, and I believe there's hope for every human to say you know what?
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.289
I've been behaving shamefully, but that's not me.
00:39:17.289 --> 00:39:19.193
I am other than my behavior.
00:39:19.193 --> 00:39:21.137
I'm distinct from it and I can change.
00:39:21.137 --> 00:39:22.807
And that takes that.
00:39:22.807 --> 00:39:24.572
That's a heart condition.
00:39:24.572 --> 00:39:35.166
I'm not the sum of my behavior and I'm going to change my behavior and change my heart and now I'm going to start moving in ways forward that I can feel great about.
00:39:35.166 --> 00:39:36.148
That I'm proud of.
00:39:36.148 --> 00:39:37.733
Will I always be proud of?
00:39:37.733 --> 00:39:38.856
No, because I'm human.
00:39:38.856 --> 00:39:44.195
I'm going to make mistakes too, but I'm not all bad and I will never be all good.
00:39:44.396 --> 00:39:59.351
I'm in the middle where all humans are, and I think that's really imperative that we live on a spectrum where humans are, that we do not hold ourselves accountable to unrealistic expectations of what humans can do or are able to do.
00:39:59.351 --> 00:40:03.505
So for me, I have a shame exercise that I do with a lot of my clients.
00:40:03.505 --> 00:40:07.471
I actually did it for myself a few years ago and it was so helpful.
00:40:07.471 --> 00:40:16.717
I was actually on a run and I don't know if you've had this experience, because you said you like to exercise, but sometimes when I'm like running, I'll have like an epiphany.
00:40:16.717 --> 00:40:54.813
And I was running and you're outside and your whole body's moving and all of a sudden, while I'm running, I think, oh my God, all that shame that I feel actually belongs to my dad and I was thinking about like where that shame transfer happened, like in my childhood, and I was totally thinking about that and I imagined myself putting all the shame that I feel into a cardboard box and then giving it to him in my imagination exercise and saying here you go, return to owner, this is yours now.
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It always was, it never belonged to me, it's always belonged to you and I'm giving it back and you can do whatever you want with it.
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It's all on you, but it's not mine anymore because it never was.
00:41:08.987 --> 00:41:10.130
And I'm realizing that.
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And it was so powerful.
00:41:12.394 --> 00:41:22.253
From that day on and this is just maybe three or four years ago when I make a mistake now, my relationship to my mistakes are like oh yeah, I made a mistake.
00:41:22.253 --> 00:41:29.637
It's so different In the past that would have sent me on a downward trajectory for like a good 24 hour period.
00:41:29.637 --> 00:41:33.175
So and I do it with my clients I just want to encourage people.
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We are not our behavior and we can just engage our imagination and give that shame back to whatever that authority figure was or that sexual abuser who gave us their shame.
00:41:44.771 --> 00:41:45.795
We can give it back.
00:41:46.664 --> 00:41:56.286
Powerful, powerful Bronwyn, for the sake of time and I actually kind of regret, we're already at this point in the conversation, so you know what?
00:41:56.286 --> 00:41:57.327
Just come back.
00:41:57.327 --> 00:41:58.050
How about that?
00:41:58.050 --> 00:41:59.233
Come back on the show.
00:41:59.233 --> 00:42:12.373
We'll talk some more again later, but for right now, for the sake of time, if anybody wants to listen to your podcast, get in touch with you, assuming you can take on more clients, maybe even work with you in some capacity.
00:42:12.373 --> 00:42:15.072
Just listen to my podcast.
00:42:15.367 --> 00:42:22.215
The reason I'm doing the podcast is to help people who will never be my clients and to bypass having to come to therapy in the first place.
00:42:22.215 --> 00:42:25.393
So my yeah, my podcast is Angry at the Right Things.
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Wherever you find your podcast podcast, you can find it sweet and also, if I remember right, angry at the right thingscom yes, my husband recently made that and I forget it exists.
00:42:34.987 --> 00:42:36.612
Yes, thank you all right sweet.
00:42:36.692 --> 00:42:54.333
So for everybody listening right now or obviously at any point in the future, depending on the player you're streaming this conversation on, you can click see more, you can click show more, and then in the dropdown description there'll be links for Bronwyn, for your website and then also for your podcast to be able to listen to it there.
00:42:54.333 --> 00:42:57.507
So if it's easier for any of our listeners, that'll take you right to it as well.
00:42:57.507 --> 00:43:00.574
Bronwyn, I can't stress this enough.
00:43:00.574 --> 00:43:03.847
You have to reach back out and come back on the show.
00:43:03.847 --> 00:43:11.949
We have way more to dive into, and I grossly underestimated how much I could fit into one conversation.
00:43:11.949 --> 00:43:14.695
That said, though, thank you for your time.
00:43:14.695 --> 00:43:19.880
I appreciate you taking some time out of your afternoon to just open up some of this.
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I feel like we just barely grazed it, and now here we are, but thank you nonetheless.
00:43:24.132 --> 00:43:25.295
I appreciate your perspective.
00:43:25.965 --> 00:43:27.012
Thank you for having me Porter.
00:43:27.032 --> 00:43:33.976
Of course, of course, of course and for everybody listening to the show obviously new listeners and consistent listeners.
00:43:33.976 --> 00:43:34.918
Thank you for returning.
00:43:34.918 --> 00:43:38.074
Thank you guys for tuning in, listening to our May Core Values.
00:43:38.074 --> 00:43:40.434
We're talking about boundaries, limits and self-care.
00:43:40.434 --> 00:43:44.275
We covered loads in this conversation.
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I hope you guys enjoyed it.
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I hope you guys learned something.
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I know I did.
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I wrote down quite a bit of information actually.
Marriage & Family Therapist and Podcast Host & Creator
Bronwyn Schweigerdt, a licensed marriage and family therapist based in Sacramento, California, is an expert in understanding and managing anger. With a passion for dispelling misconceptions around anger, she advocates for validating emotions and addressing the relational roots of anger. Through her therapeutic approach, Bronwyn helps individuals develop healthier relationships with their anger, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging underlying emotions such as rejection and betrayal. Drawing from personal experiences and professional expertise, she challenges societal norms and offers practical insights on navigating complex human emotions. Bronwyn's mission extends beyond therapy as she hosts the podcast "Angry at the Right Things," aiming to reach and support a broader audience in their journey towards emotional well-being.