From Gratitude to Growth: Phyllis Weiss Haserot's Guide to Inclusivity

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The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience.

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Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, when we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity.

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My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character.

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This is why values still hold value.

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This is Transacting Value.

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If all you're doing is talking to people who think just like you, then you don't learn anything.

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Well, you're not growing either.

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Yeah, I mean, I think that it's fascinating that people are all so different, and that's a good thing.

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Today on Transacting Value.

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We all know everybody wants to be heard and everybody wants to feel valued.

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What happens when that changes?

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What happens when that conflict or that distance, that inability to relate to people and develop those kinds of relationships, changes, changes this particular conversation we're talking with Phyllis Weiss Haserot, all about how to work through some of those hard questions and build relationships and what we can do to better develop our senses of self along the way.

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Without further ado, I'm Porter, I'm your host, and this is Transacting Value.

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Phyllis, how are you doing?

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I am thrilled to be here.

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It has made me think so much back to my childhood and what formed me In thinking about our conversation.

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I did spend a lot of time thinking about it, which was fun.

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Yeah, it's pretty interesting once you stop and reintroduce yourself to yourself.

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Yeah, it is.

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It's pretty interesting once you stop and reintroduce yourself to yourself how foreign of a person you can become and in my case, I don't think it was that foreign, but I just hadn't been thinking about it, Maybe because I wasn't having any ghosts and I wasn't having goblins that were spooking me.

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Well, okay, so let's start out at the beginning, For everybody who's listening to the conversation and may not know who you are, how about?

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Who are you?

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What do you do?

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Where are you from?

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You know what kinds of things have shaped your perspective.

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I'm actually a native New Yorker from Manhattan.

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I love New York, I love the arts and culture and all of that.

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My big focus for the last 15 years or more has been helping organizations and individuals solve their intergenerational challenges at work and also cultural now, and I can tell you how I got into that part of it as well.

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But everything that I'm dealing with and with clients and discussions really brings those factors into them.

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It's not just a matter of reeling off a list of characteristics of people of different generations.

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Let's say I consider myself cross-generational because I really relate strongly to three generations and that's fine with me.

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I think I am a talent leverage champion.

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I have to say that I laugh when people say what an interesting little niche you have, and I think it's related to everything.

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Let's open it up a little bit.

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You said you focus on businesses, corporations, organizations.

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It up a little bit.

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You said you focus on businesses, corporations, organizations and you said intergenerational I assume concepts and issues, scenarios and cross-cultural issues and scenarios.

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For what reason?

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What does that accomplish?

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Instead of DEI it should be BDEI, and the B coming first, because you can be included and still not feel like you're belonging Absolutely, and I'm trying to get them to change the title.

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So your primary focus is what?

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Diversity, equity and inclusion.

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That's the direction that you tend to work in.

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I mean there are all these differences.

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People are talking about diversity.

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For a long time it was about gender, it was about race, then it got to be all those things, but it's so much more than that, and it's diversity of thought which I feel very strongly about.

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It's interesting you're bringing that up because for one, I with you.

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I mean, you think about, let's pick a decade, 1950s.

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We're talking about that before we hit record.

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Okay, so 70 years ago it was, generally speaking, gender inequalities or maybe, to a certain degree, ethnic inequalities.

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Okay, but that's all that's the story of America Now, Now

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Every single concept comes back to nobody wants to be alone, nobody wants to be ostracized, be the one not included in the group, be the one that feels like they don't have friends or a society or a safety network.

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And so this push towards inclusion over the last, let's say, 30 years, I agree, has diversified beyond gender and ethnicity.

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But now I think it's maybe too authentic because we've got people trying to be things that really they're not, but they're trying to fit in and there's so many options.

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It's like an option overload of who you can become, when really maybe we just need to get in a quiet room for a little while and think about us for a minute.

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You know, you notice in any of that taking shape in organizations or with any clients you've worked with.

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Generationally there's differences and you know, you said in the 1950s there were two genders.

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Well, there probably were a little more than that, but now there are.

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Many People have a right to their identity, but let's not look at it.

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As you know, the only important thing we should be open.

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I mean, I think that one of my values is definitely openness and inclusiveness, but there are a lot of other ones.

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I consider my superpowers to be curiosity and creativity.

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I believe actually respectful self-expression is a good thing.

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There's boundaries to that, I suppose is a good thing.

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There's boundaries to that, I suppose.

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I think it's times and places for the sake of consideration or courtesy, you know, public discourse, mutual respect, maybe.

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I guess the less aware and the less courteous we are of other people's opinions in public spaces and their maybe even personal or public boundaries, the less courteous we are of those things.

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I think it really makes it difficult as a human condition, a human experience, to get to know other people.

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That, I think, is the limiting feature to too much openness and too much authenticity.

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And you're afraid of conflict.

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What do you mean?

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People are afraid of conflict if they bring up something that somebody doesn't like.

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I mean a lot of.

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That's true, and it's certainly true in the workplace.

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You think people are afraid of conflict in the workplace.

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And I'm probing and prying because I'm curious what you mean.

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I mean, even if generationally there are different generations who are accusing the other ones of things that they don't like or they think ought to change, and they're not changing.

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It was all an evolution.

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You mean like what patterns, trends or specific points?

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What are you talking about?

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Problems, challenges that are there that we ought to find a way of solving Sure.

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And so conflict resolution is another thing I got involved with because my clients were having trouble with the partners and management trusted me because I had been already working with them.

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All right, folks sit tight, We'll be right back on Transacting Value.

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Learn more at va.

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gov /disability.

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Conflict resolution is another thing I got involved with because my clients were having trouble with the partners and management trusted me because I had been already working with them and I was a trailblazer in that I started at a time when the professionals had to be dragged, kicking and screaming to do marketing.

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I mean now when you say that to a person you know, even a Gen Xer and you know certainly younger ones, they think that's crazy because they know that that's part of what they had to do.

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But most of them don't know that before 1977 and their Supreme Court decision it was illegal, unethical and unprofessional to do marketing, advertising, pr, any kind of promotion.

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What changed then in 1977?

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What was the law?

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What changed?

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then in 1977?

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What was the law?

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Now we know that Lincoln advertised, so it wasn't always true from the beginning of time, but somewhere all the state has their own laws and jurisdiction.

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Sure.

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And that decision opened it up for every licensed professional, and I was one of them, and I was an urban planner.

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That's how it was.

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So there are all kinds of things that people who are in the workplace now have no idea about.

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I think I'm starting to figure out a little slice of you.

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Phyllis, I think I'm catching on.

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You said you started out.

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Well, maybe not started out, but earlier on in your career you were working on urban planning.

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And then we were also obviously talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, corporate workplaces, cross-cultural intergenerational conversations, issues, you know whatever.

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And I could be, because I don't know a lot about urban planning.

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That's a large part about urban planning how demographics move through a city, the social sciences that they interact with within any particular geographic boundary.

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Rare bird, not the only one, not the first, not, you know, but it was much more unusual.

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I have a master's degree and when I you know, when I started working, I had younger and older people reporting to me because I had a worthy education and so I got used to working with people of various ages.

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I was very comfortable with it.

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We have a lot of the same considerations.

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My background is in the military, specific to the Marine Corps, and this is no judgment on any branch or any other branch for that matter.

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But intergenerational considerations are, I think, very heavily blended into the military culture, to the point where they're so camouflaged they're hard to see because it's all under this guise of rank structure, and so I might be the new guy.

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For example, most of my career has been in the infantry and so I might be the new guy in a platoon or in a squad or whatever, and I'm a younger person.

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And then, as that builds out to a company or a battalion, the people that are in charge could theoretically be 20 years older than me, in a different generational bracket, or you know, hypothetically my parents' age, and I'm the new guy.

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So I don't talk to them, I don't certainly treat them as equals.

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We don't have conversations, we have one-way monologues that I have to abide by, right, and so it exists.

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But it's not to the same extent that it would be in the private sector or corporate America, for example, where we could very easily work together.

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We could both be the same blue collar workers in an organization, we could be partners in a truck and work together and be one two generations apart.

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Now, interestingly, though, there's other militaries where that is the case.

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I remember when I deployed in 2012, I went to Afghanistan and the group of guys that we partnered with specifically the one guy that I actually partnered directly with he had never actually advanced past where we would have, in a matter of about two years time, in service, and he had been doing it for 30 years, and so everybody treated him like you know, you go do the dirty work, even though he had been doing it for decades.

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And so I'm curious of any of the veterans that maybe you've come across, have you heard or have you seen that it's difficult to adapt to intergenerational equality, or is there always sort of this unspoken boundary and gap?

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My experience has really been with people who came out of the military and either went to get a college degree or a graduate degree, and there is a conscious effort by the institution to try to make them feel comfortable.

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I think that makes all the difference when the hiring organization or the host venue what would you call it?

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Parent venue, like a school, for example, where I found in my personal experience the only way to really work through some of that stuff talking to yourself in an empty room or talking to somebody else in a park to not be afraid of conflict.

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I'm not trying to make you upset or angry or frustrated, but if you do, I'm not taking it personally, because I'm trying to develop inquiry and get to know you as a person and that sort of generally always keeps it okay because that's all you're trying to do.

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Are we safe enough to be in the same platonic public relationship with each other?

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Can we be safe and vulnerable?

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And I think that's tricky.

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It's tricky, but I think you need to kind of lay it out to begin with.

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In a work situation, when we talk about psychological safety, I believe that every time a meeting is started by a team or somebody new, that the ground rules should be set out so people know you can whatever you want.

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I mean again, no violent language.

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Nobody should feel a fear to express their opinions in a respectful way, and respect and dignity is part of those ground rules.

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And you can do that when you're having a conversation with somebody new where you think that maybe you know that there are differences.

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Sometimes they're very visible, Sure sure.

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But to try to make them comfortable, and especially if one person starts to say something controversial.

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Within that conversation.

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Right, yeah, exactly Okay.

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Yeah To say either I am uncomfortable so maybe we shouldn't talk about this, or how can we agree to disagree and that is okay.

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All right, folks sit tight, we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

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Join us for Transacting Value, where we discuss practical applications of personal values, every Monday at 9 am on our website, transactingvaluepodcastcom, wednesdays at 5 pm and Sundays at noon on wreathsacrossamerica.

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org/ slash radio.

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To say either I am uncomfortable, so maybe we shouldn't talk about this, or how can we agree to disagree, and that is okay.

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If all you're doing is talking to people who think just like you, then you don't learn anything.

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Well, you're not.

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Is talking to people who think just like you, then you don't learn anything.

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Well, you're not growing either.

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Yeah, I mean I think that it's fascinating that people are all so different and that's a good thing and, yes, it brings more different kinds of talents together, probably more innovative.

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Probably more innovative.

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There's all kinds of research, but I just find it so interesting to learn about people who are different than I am.

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And if we go back just really quickly about my childhood, I never considered myself a victim.

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I had a very happy childhood.

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I had great parents I mean, unfortunately, my father, the C word until afterwards, but no, and I grew up in a neighborhood that was great and, interestingly, for the last three years, my elementary school class has a Zoom meeting the last Friday of every month, which is who is this with your elementary school?

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And it was not a very diverse place.

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It was very nurturing, inspiring people still, and once that started with the Zoom meeting, it was so funny how people who lots of them hadn't talked to each other in decades and just could sit down and talk about things Definitely have political discussions all the time, although they're mostly on one side, but I think that it gave me a lot of confidence, so that was very fortunate, but it also made me want to share and help people who were having problems with things that I didn't have problems with, to help them grow, and this was kind of always true, but I don't know that it really clicked in my mind for a long time.

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Sure, do you think technology or aspects of communicating through technology degrades from any kind of relationship building skills or pulls away from its, maybe, depth and resonance?

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It can or it can't.

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I mean I think that's in individual circumstances.

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I do believe that the energy is better in person, it's stronger, and that very often it takes longer to get to know someone if you're only talking on Zoom, if you meet in person first and then after that that's a good foundation, but otherwise it's harder.

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But then the alternative, especially when it started happening, was nothing, yeah, except the people that you lived with or you met on the street, if you weren't sick at the time.

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Sure.

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You know they weren't, so we have to be grateful for a lot of that.

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But you know it's not necessarily my preference, but some people do prefer it.

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Yeah, I think it's counterintuitive.

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I mean, if you count the ability to think and consciously interpret as a sixth sense, then we have six senses to be able to get to know somebody.

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You know interpersonally, for the sake of safety or family or belonging, or you know for whatever number of reasons, that now you and I, for example, we're at a deficit.

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I can't touch you, I can't shake your hand, give you a hug, say hey, there's none of that initial superficial bonding in the relationship.

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It doesn't exist.

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Initial superficial bonding in the relationship, it doesn't exist.

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Touch, I don't think has ever been taken away before and now it is.

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Now it can be All right, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

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Today my bank made a big mistake, but I forgave them.

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My server spilled water on me, but I forgave him.

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My toddler drew lipstick on the wall.

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Was I ever mad?

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It got me thinking.

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I can forgive my bank and my server, but I'm upset with my own kid.

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I mean, what's most important here?

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So tonight the two of us are doing lipstick art On paper.

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Forgiveness is in you.

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From PassItOn.

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com.

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I can't shake your hand, give you a hug, say hey, there's none of that initial superficial bonding in the relationship.

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It doesn't exist.

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Touch, I don't think has ever been taken away before, and now it is, now it can be, and so I wonder what effect that might have.

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Yeah, you don't have smell either.

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Right, yeah, there you go.

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Smell either, and so, that said, I think this is a good point.

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This is a segment of the show called developing character.

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Developing character.

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And so for anybody new Phyllis, obviously you included.

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This is just to sort of establish you and your outlook, specifically as it applies to your value system.

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To your value system, though and I'm curious, while we're talking intergenerational aspects and relationship building my first question when you were growing up?

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As far as value systems are concerned, when you were growing up, what were some of the values that you were actually raised around or exposed to, or maybe taught?

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I think education is one of them, and my parents were both professionals.

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My father was a lawyer, my mother was a social worker.

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Oh, I see Okay.

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But also were in helping professions.

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Even though you might not think of a lawyer as helping he was, he was very involved in the community and political things and all that.

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They were very inclusive in what they were doing and not only in their own profession, but they'd be that way about people.

00:24:46.346 --> 00:24:48.114
I imagine in those industries you'd have to be.

00:24:49.346 --> 00:24:56.748
Yeah, you would have to be, but it depended, for instance, what kind of law you were practicing.

00:24:56.748 --> 00:24:58.452
I think trust.

00:24:58.452 --> 00:25:10.233
I grew up in a neighborhood where people were very trusting of each other and I believe in trust to start out being trustful.

00:25:10.233 --> 00:25:19.310
If you meet somebody, I don't believe I'm not suspicious of them unless I had a reason beforehand.

00:25:19.310 --> 00:25:33.255
You know, like I meet somebody for the first time but I was introduced by somebody who said you know, I don't know if this person's a little shady or whether I can trust them, but if you don't know anything.

00:25:34.157 --> 00:25:55.518
But there are a lot of people and I think we've gotten this fear, whether it's a fear of conflict, but being suspicious of people, especially if they don't look and sound and lead the same kind of life that we do.

00:25:55.518 --> 00:26:00.105
We've been getting that way more over the decades.

00:26:00.105 --> 00:26:04.936
It's not all just in the last 10 or 20 years.

00:26:04.936 --> 00:26:08.467
It's getting worse and we didn't.

00:26:08.467 --> 00:26:14.038
I mean, even this country has had a long period.

00:26:14.306 --> 00:26:33.778
Well, we were immigrants to begin with, but even if you look at the different centuries and you know the early 20th century or the end of the 19th, we had people coming, but they were mostly from all over parts of Europe, more than anywhere else.

00:26:33.778 --> 00:26:41.219
Then in World War II there were more people coming from other places because of the war.

00:26:41.219 --> 00:26:56.825
But immigration is not a new thing here and there were problems with Italians, irish Jews and so forth where there were a lot of them coming.

00:26:56.825 --> 00:27:06.160
People always seem to be or some people are afraid they're going to be replaced by new people coming in.

00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.516
So it is a competitive thing.

00:27:10.516 --> 00:27:17.557
I mean I think even generational, you can think of being replaced.

00:27:17.978 --> 00:27:30.438
Oh, yeah, sure, there's younger people taking jobs from perfectly qualified people that have been doing it for five decades and now those people can't get jobs because they're not, I don't know, young enough or whatever.

00:27:30.438 --> 00:27:33.993
It is interesting that similarity.

00:27:33.993 --> 00:27:42.532
I guess you know you're the only child, there's a new baby, you're the mom's kids, and then mom and stepdad have a new baby.

00:27:42.532 --> 00:27:53.471
You're in your household and then you move to college and you're in a new sort of communal setting that you're not used to, and all of these you're in your friend circle and they get new friends.

00:27:53.471 --> 00:27:57.219
You know all these types of parallels that everybody, I think, can relate to.

00:27:57.219 --> 00:28:04.647
My second question then trust and education, for example, being some of your foundational values.

00:28:04.647 --> 00:28:06.010
What about now?

00:28:06.010 --> 00:28:13.204
People change just as much as time changes people, and so how have your values shifted and changed for you more at present?

00:28:14.145 --> 00:28:20.717
I think that a lot of my values have remained and I brought on new ones.

00:28:20.717 --> 00:28:38.232
I made a list actually had made this list, not for this specifically, but I had 10 values that I came up with for my values, and there are probably more than that.

00:28:38.232 --> 00:28:46.439
I mean new ones that I threw in that I wouldn't have realized before, like self-care.

00:28:48.193 --> 00:28:48.765
That's a big one.

00:28:48.845 --> 00:28:56.430
I mean, I have three things that are non-negotiable, and they have been for a very, very long time.

00:28:56.430 --> 00:29:27.917
That's very lucky, and it's a lot of the reason that I'm healthy, I think, but those are non-negotiable with me, I added a fourth one, which is gratitude.

00:29:27.917 --> 00:29:52.517
Powerful and when I get into bed I say three things or three people that for that very day I am grateful for, and it can't be the same thing all the time, because there are several things I mean it can come up again, sure sure but not in the same try to keep it fresh, yeah well, yeah, keeping it fresh.

00:29:52.676 --> 00:30:02.276
But also, to make you think deeply, there must be other things, not necessarily the first thing that came to your mind that day.

00:30:02.276 --> 00:30:22.359
Was it somebody you hadn't it hadn't really registered that did something nice for you and I've always been an optimist, but it keeps you optimistic at times when there's a lot not to be optimistic about.

00:30:22.621 --> 00:30:23.804
Absolutely Well.

00:30:23.804 --> 00:30:24.806
It's like you said earlier.

00:30:24.806 --> 00:30:30.146
You know, if it's, if it's authentic to who you are and how you want to move through the world, then it works.

00:30:30.146 --> 00:30:35.086
Then then do it, phyllis, though, for the sake of time, I think.

00:30:35.086 --> 00:30:49.229
My last question, though if anybody wants to reach out to you as far as your insights, your ability to get in touch with people, other podcasts that you go on to or that you've already been on, you know where do people go?

00:30:49.229 --> 00:30:50.150
How do people find you?

00:30:50.892 --> 00:31:06.421
I'm happy to give you my email address, so that's P-W-H-A-S-E-R-O-T at P-D-C-O-U-N-S-E-L dot com.

00:31:06.421 --> 00:31:09.615
My firm is Practice Development Council.

00:31:10.488 --> 00:31:11.653
So that's PD Council.

00:31:12.326 --> 00:31:14.073
You can find me on LinkedIn.

00:31:14.073 --> 00:31:17.775
It's the one that I pay the most attention to.

00:31:17.775 --> 00:31:26.640
My website is youcantgoogleitcom, which was named after my third book.

00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:37.467
I have a couple of three things I'm happy to make available to people, and I thought we would get to talk.

00:31:37.467 --> 00:31:40.232
We didn't know where it was going to go.

00:31:40.232 --> 00:31:43.719
Talk about how to have hard conversations.

00:31:43.719 --> 00:31:47.455
Maybe, if you'd like, we can have another conversation.

00:31:47.744 --> 00:31:48.246
Absolutely.

00:31:48.246 --> 00:31:49.646
Yeah, for the sake of time.

00:31:49.646 --> 00:31:51.308
Now we are out of it.

00:31:51.308 --> 00:32:02.761
But you know another option as well if you wanted to even have it typed up like a blog and we can air it the same time as this conversation and post it and publish it alongside this, that's an option as well.

00:32:03.265 --> 00:32:10.718
All right, I have a template that is very helpful for starting conversations.

00:32:10.718 --> 00:32:15.227
Yeah, that'd be great, and however you would like, yeah, I appreciate that.

00:32:15.267 --> 00:32:15.788
That'd be great.

00:32:15.788 --> 00:32:31.329
And so for anybody new to the show or new to podcasting, depending on the player you're listening to this on, if you click see more or you click show more in the dropdown description for the conversation that's what Phyllis is talking about for the links where you can find those things and you'll be able to track them down there as well.

00:32:31.329 --> 00:32:36.960
But I appreciate the opportunity you coming on the show to talk a little bit and share your perspective.

00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:37.746
I loved it.

00:32:37.746 --> 00:32:38.667
Thanks for your time.

00:32:39.349 --> 00:32:40.792
Oh good, I loved it too.

00:32:40.792 --> 00:32:44.728
It was great, great to get to know you a little bit too.

00:32:44.969 --> 00:32:45.169
Yeah.

00:32:45.169 --> 00:32:53.315
Yeah, I'm glad we were able to make it work out and obviously in the future, should you find yourself with some free time and you're looking for a conversation, get back in touch.

00:32:53.315 --> 00:32:54.497
Let's get you back on.

00:32:54.497 --> 00:32:55.218
We could talk some more.

00:32:55.218 --> 00:32:55.679
I'd love it.

00:32:56.385 --> 00:32:57.449
I will do that.

00:32:57.449 --> 00:32:59.375
I think we have a lot to talk about.

00:32:59.605 --> 00:32:59.986
I agree.

00:33:00.346 --> 00:33:00.729
I agree.

00:33:00.729 --> 00:33:02.113
I appreciate your time and folks.

00:33:02.113 --> 00:33:15.318
Thank you for tuning in, listening to our conversation, where we talked about conflict and what you can do about it and why it's important not to shy away from it and the good that it actually can do as, all things considered, the natural state of everything.

00:33:15.318 --> 00:33:22.152
Guys, I appreciate you taking some time to tune in, listen to the show, check us out and, obviously, this conversation with Phyllis.

00:33:22.152 --> 00:33:28.454
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00:33:28.454 --> 00:33:31.674
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00:33:31.674 --> 00:33:34.728
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00:33:34.728 --> 00:33:44.147
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00:33:44.147 --> 00:33:55.345
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00:33:55.345 --> 00:34:00.278
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00:34:00.278 --> 00:34:02.672
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00:34:06.412 --> 00:34:14.208
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00:34:14.769 --> 00:34:21.034
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00:34:21.034 --> 00:34:28.195
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00:34:35.152 --> 00:34:46.885
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00:34:46.885 --> 00:34:48.567
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00:34:48.567 --> 00:34:52.809
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00:34:52.809 --> 00:35:02.893
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00:35:02.893 --> 00:35:05.155
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00:35:05.914 --> 00:35:13.699
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00:35:13.699 --> 00:35:22.922
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00:35:22.922 --> 00:35:29.744
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00:35:29.744 --> 00:35:33.530
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00:35:33.530 --> 00:35:51.277
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00:35:51.277 --> 00:35:54.731
Until next time that was Transacting Value.