Conflict and Resilience After Divorce: Jeff Kolez's Insights

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The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience.

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Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, when we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity.

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My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character.

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This is why values still hold value.

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This is Transacting Value.

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Yes, you're a jellyfish and you're on a current, and life throws things at you.

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You have no choice.

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All you can do is react to it, and it's the reaction that makes all the difference.

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Today on Transacting Value.

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What is it about parenting or marriage, or maybe, even more specifically, being a male in those particular roles that causes us conflict, that causes these moments of anger, these moments of chaos to erupt into usually, unfortunately, in high-stress positions divorce.

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Our conversation today.

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We're talking with Jeff Kolez from Divorcedaddy.

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com all about what that looks like, and he's coaching divorced dads on what to do with their anger, how to use their anger towards something positive and something that can rebuild relationships in the process.

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So, without further ado, I'm Porter, I'm your host, and this is Transacting Value, Jeff.

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What's up, man?

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How you doing?

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Doing amazing.

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How are you doing?

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Good dude, I appreciate you taking some time out of your schedule.

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I know everybody's got plenty of things going on in life today, but we're recording on a weekend and that's coveted time for many people, so thanks for blocking out a little bit in your schedule.

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Thanks for making time for me on your schedule.

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I listened to a few of your podcasts.

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I've enjoyed them and I think you're doing a good job here.

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I appreciate it and you know not to put you on the spot, but what is it about?

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Maybe value systems or self-worth that appeals to you in your coaching business or in your personal life?

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Why is that something that holds some resonance for you?

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I don't think I had a value system growing up.

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I think the way I was raised was to put others before me and maybe that's not even the right way to say it but to put myself below other people, specifically in my family, like my parents were above me and then it was me below that.

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So when I got married, that was the dynamic I recreated.

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And then when you put somebody on a pedestal, they have no choice but to look down at you and I wouldn't say I put my ex wife on a pedestal, like there was this, this resentment towards it, towards that dynamic.

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So it was build her up but tear her down.

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Build her up, tear her down.

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It was just this constant up and down.

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That's not a great dynamic to have in a relationship, no.

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So naturally it fell apart.

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When I went through a divorce it felt like I was tearing.

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It didn't feel like I did tear everything down to nothing, because I know when I created it that's made from what I believe and what I hold true well, there's more control too.

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So, in addition to authenticity, I think it breeds its own sense of stability, despite whatever chaos might lead you to that sort of conclusion or necessity too.

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Chaos is 100% right.

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Yeah, yeah, well, you know what.

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Let me start here.

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So, first off, for anybody who's new to the show, again, what we're talking about essentially is instigating self-worth and, through different points and periods of conflict and chaos, how can you do that internally, intrinsically or externally for somebody else maybe, and make it resonate?

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And I think a lot of that comes down to a personal value system, something that you can stand on but, like you just brought up, Jeff, something that maybe you create in the process or increase your awareness of.

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That was there the whole time, one or the other, I'm not sure, but in this case nobody even knows who you are.

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So maybe we just start there for everybody who's listening, let's just back up who are you.

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You know, where are you from?

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What sort of things have shaped your perspective on life as a person?

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So I'm Canadian, I was raised just outside of Toronto, I grew up in the suburbs, and the way I think about it now is there are these houses that are all the same, but they kind of mask what's going on underneath, and I think there are great dramas that play out beneath those houses, behind the doors, and we don't really see what goes on there.

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So I don't think I had a great upbringing and this is somewhat uncomfortable to talk about.

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Like I mentioned before, I was beneath everything else and my values didn't matter.

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So I don't know that I was raised with many values.

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So I went into a relationship, I went into a marriage.

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The marriage didn't go well and I had a divorce.

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So up until that point in my life it felt like my life didn't really happen.

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Everything felt very wooden.

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I felt like I was programmed.

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I felt like I didn't have, like I had, a soul and I felt like I was very logical and everything was black and white.

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Once I got a divorce, I started questioning things why am I this way?

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Why am I acting this way?

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Why do I not have deep relationships?

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Why did I seek out a toxic relationship?

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Anyway, so I went through that divorce and I hadn't really done anything for myself up until that point and I started focusing on myself and giving myself permission to feel good and do things that would improve my life.

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Right after my divorce, I went and traveled the world a bit just to have perspective.

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Then I came back and went through what I can only describe as hell.

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Going through a divorce is such a miserable experience for lawyers and spending your money, absolutely.

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Yeah, we owned a house together and I left it.

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I left with the clothes on my back and my car and that was it.

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Oh, and I had a child support payment on top of that and I was expected to well, not expected.

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I expected of myself to rebuild my life and and I decided my divorce wasn't going to be the thing that beat me.

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So I did what it took in order to and I'm going to say, win.

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But it's not.

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Winning, isn't about fighting your ex, it's about winning with yourself.

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And that can sound a little cheesy when you frame it that way, when you frame it as a battle.

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You do what it takes to survive or you don't.

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And I decided I was gonna make a better life, and that's been my mantra, my mantra since then yeah, good for you, and I mean it's not new to your point, this internal battle and working through some of that stuff.

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You know, maybe there's the who was it?

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Bruce Lee, I think you said it depends on which wolf you feed.

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Matter of fact, there's a show on Netflix Pretty sure it was Netflix Benedict Cumberbatch is the male lead, I think it's called Eric, and the entire premise for the show is what is it?

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Sometimes the worst monsters we face are the ones inside us, not outside or under the bed.

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So it's about him raising his kid after his son runs away and then what happens in that process, trying to find him and track down the son.

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But the point that you just brought up well, a few points, frankly, that you just brought up that I think are pretty interesting is blame is common.

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Obviously, in a two-party type relationship it goes both ways.

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But I think what we don't talk about often enough and at least in my experience generally as men ever is the fact that there's also this third lane in the road where it's just a dead end wall and so all the blame we throw down it bounces right back and we start blaming ourselves eventually, whether we realize the extent or maybe even damage that that can cause.

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And so, on one hand, I totally't know manifesting, owning, accepting, controlling what I was doing.

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I just stood on what I thought I was supposed to be doing and it wasn't until the last, I'd say over the last 15 years since I enlisted in the Marine Corps and then to present that I didn't have much of a choice.

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I had nobody else to stand on or rely on, and that's one of the benefits I see to different high stress positions and occupations.

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It puts you in a position where you have to make decisions that are more authentic to you and if you don't know the foundation to stand on, I suppose you can't build any stable structure on creativity and hope that it stays up and that it stands strong in any sort of uh you know storm in the future or whatever.

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You mentioned the toxicity, essentially, that had come out or started to manifest in that relationship, and not to psychoanalyze this, but I'm just curious your opinion now in hindsight, do you think you, like, attributed some sort of idea or feeling that that's the best you deserved, because that's what you'd grown accustomed to, and so that's just what you created inadvertently?

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Yeah, I want to.

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I want to go back to your comment about responsibility.

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One of the first things I do when I'm coaching is I talk through, or I have the man recognize that he is responsible for, or acknowledge that he is responsible for, everything he's created in his life.

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It doesn't matter what happened between the two of you.

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You have created that.

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You curate your own reality.

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It doesn't matter what she did.

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She had an affair, she took your money, she took your house, whatever you created that situation.

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Once you take responsibility, if you're pointing your finger at somebody else and saying this person did this to me, that's a victim mindset.

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So the way out of a victim mindset is to take responsibility, no matter what it is, and you know the courts are against you.

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It doesn't matter.

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How did you get in this situation?

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Don't let that happen again.

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Once you recognize that, you can realize you're in the driver's seat and you can start to create a different life.

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But until you do that, you're stuck reacting.

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So to answer your second question, I don't think, yeah, I didn't have the self-esteem to recognize that I could take responsibility, that I deserved better.

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I don't even think I knew what a relationship was for beyond, say, having somebody else in the house pay half the mortgage to have kids with and someone to watch the kids when you're not there.

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I didn't know that there could be this beauty in a relationship, that you both brought different sides, different elements to a relationship that maybe as men we bring strength, stability, groundedness and she brings color and beauty.

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And I don't think you can find that until you have that self-esteem, until you really believe in yourself and then can stand in yourself.

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It does sort of go hand in hand.

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I mean, I get it also for the record.

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It's not lost on me that 2024 gender roles have shifted some, or at least the perception of them.

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But let's say for a baseline, for right now we're just talking traditionally, and that way we've got some clarity moving forward.

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But let's say for a baseline, for right now we're just talking traditionally, and that way we've got some clarity moving forward.

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But to your point, Jeff, I absolutely agree.

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Maybe not with everything, because if you don't know what you bring to the table, you're never going to know how to pay attention or identify.

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What somebody else brings to the table.

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I think, at least in my experience, Is that sort of similar to what you experienced as well.

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If I don't know what I bring to the table, you don't know what somebody else?

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Yeah, you have to know yourself.

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Yeah, and I don't mean strict gender roles, that's not.

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That's not quite what I'm saying.

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I think men do bring one role, women do bring another role but you both can't bring the same.

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You can't bring the same.

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Yes, yeah, yeah.

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I love cooking, for instance, and I I do most of the cooking.

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It's just, it's fun for me and it's it's meditative.

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You know you're prepping the stuff and you're you know you're browning the meat and you're you're chopping the vegetable.

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It's meditative.

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So you each bring this element.

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That's what I mean by that.

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Yeah, yeah, but you can't know what you want unless, or you can't look for that other part, unless you know what you are.

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I had no idea who I was.

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It just felt like this happy-go-lucky, like, yeah, whatever will happen will happen, but whatever's going to happen is somebody might take advantage of that.

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When you're happy, go lucky, like that you're, you're floating on emotions and logic, and there's no intention behind that, and by logic I mean living in your head, and those are two opposites.

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So I'm introducing a concept here.

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I realize that kind of backwards, but I think old me lived in my head and was driven by emotions rather than that centeredness.

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And so new you.

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By comparison, you feel now to be more centered and more aware, at least of yourself.

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Yeah, I call it living in the heart, which is you're recognizing that you're not your head, you're not your emotions, that there's something deeper, and it's not quite a balance of the two, but it's almost listening to intuition and it's a much safer place and a much more grounded place to live from.

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All right, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value Her words weren't written under peaceful shade, but under fear for her life.

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Everyone has inside a piece of good news.

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For two agonizing years she worried about being caught by the Nazis.

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The good news is that you don't know how great you can be.

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Though her story ended early, her words live on.

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I don't think of all the misery, but of the beauty that still remains.

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With her positive outlook, anne Frank continues to fill us with hope.

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Hope, pass it on From PassItOncom.

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But it's almost listening to intuition and it's a much safer place and a much more grounded place to live from.

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I absolutely agree, but I think it takes a catalyst for that to happen.

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Do you or have you watched ever any superhero movies?

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Like more of the live action ones, the cartoons, whichever right, none of them are able to manifest their own strengths or abilities or futures or whatever successes until they go through some sort of cataclysmic event and then, obviously, that sort of journey of recognition and awareness and growth and ownership and acceptance.

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And the interesting thing I think about comics and games and movies that have these types of characters whether or not they're superheroes is irrelevant is that I don't think they create our realities.

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I still can't fly, I don't have laser vision, you know what I mean.

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I don't turn green when I'm angry but their realities are based on our human existence because humans created the storyline.

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Realities are based on our human existence because humans created the storyline.

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And I think you're right, in a certain sense of depth and analysis and critical thought, that once we get to a point where we can creatively turn our circumstances into something that we're able to use productively, proactively, beneficially, for our own growth, that's when living starts, because then you know the master of my fate, captain of my soul, sort of invictus moment, right In your case, what did you say?

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Curating your own reality.

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When you say curate that's not create, how do you view the difference?

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There's something that takes power away from me.

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It doesn't exist.

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Oh, ok, so you actively choosing, yeah, yeah, ok, all right, all right, so a presence, a sort of command, maybe this is actually a pretty solid opportunity.

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I think this is a segment of the show called developing character.

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So for anybody who's new to the show, and obviously Jeff, you included this is just two questions and what I'm trying to identify nestled somewhere in your personal value system how maybe that started, maybe what it looks like now, but what your values have done for you to develop that sense of self and self-worth.

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And so my first question is when you were growing up you mentioned there wasn't much awareness, but from what you remember now, looking back, what were some of the values that maybe you were raised on, inherently, grew up around, picked up on by chance?

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What do you think?

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I've been reflecting on this to answer this question, and I honestly have a hard time thinking about what my values are.

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Before this, I think I was raised in a very what I'm going to call player versus player mentality and environment.

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So it's everybody out for themselves and I think that's what I had growing up.

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And I remember this one time I asked my parents to stop teasing me.

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I must have been like 16 or 17.

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It's, you know, those formative years and you're really sensitive.

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And they said, oh, we're just teasing you, you know, it's just, it's just in fun.

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But I think I had had enough of it and I brought that with me that you tease the ones, the people you love, and I thought that was how people behaved who loved each other.

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Obviously it's not so.

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When I had my divorce, my oldest he was about six or seven at the time and I remember him saying to me isn't it great that there's no more yelling in the house?

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And it broke me a bit that he saw that my ex and I were fighting all the time.

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For me, that moment drew a line back to that conversation with my parents around can you stop teasing me?

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I don't want to be around this negative energy and my oldest going.

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I don't want, you know, I see this negative energy and I had that idea of generational trauma and, just you know, passing down that, that shit from one generation to the next, to the next, to the next, and I didn't, I didn't want to pass that down to my kids.

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That's when I started really looking inside to see the next relationship I wanted to have.

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I didn't want to mirror that my first, my marriage and I realized really quickly that I was going to have to be the one that changed.

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I've been in a relationship for 11 years now over 11 years and early on I started recognizing some of the patterns I was doing and I was like I just even being aware of it, like why am I pushing that button?

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It was so subconscious, but why am I pushing that same button?

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And it was my that conversation of isn't it great there's no more arguments that that really drove me like, okay, we have, we have to stop this.

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I have to stop pushing that button.

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I don't want to recreate this relationship.

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I don't want my kids to see that that is the relationship I'm demonstrating.

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I think I got a little lost here.

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Yeah, if there were anything that stands out to you and from what it sounds like there was a certain degree of humor at play.

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For example, that was something that existed when you were younger, that to whatever effect, extent and impact now is almost irrelevant.

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But things like that, yeah.

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What other aspects, what other characteristics, values can you think of?

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Maybe in hindsight they got the ball rolling for you.

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Yeah.

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And I do still like that biting humor, but it's done a lot more in a lot lighter.

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There's not that heaviness behind it, if you know what I mean.

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Yeah, yeah, there's a degree of care.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And if I do step on the other person's toes, I'm immediately like I don't want the other person feeling bad about that.

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Here's a better story.

00:21:08.650 --> 00:21:11.750
My youngest had a school assignment.

00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:15.672
He's a really sharp kid and he's really good with people.

00:21:15.672 --> 00:21:19.594
The school assignment was to talk about how he became him.

00:21:19.594 --> 00:21:27.036
So, looking back through the generations, what was the story that led to him being where he was?

00:21:28.277 --> 00:21:46.352
So my grandfather was a farmer over in Poland and during the Second World War, obviously it came and impacted him really badly and he was taken into a work camp and it was just about the worst experience a human being can have.

00:21:46.352 --> 00:21:58.976
And he tells stories about how he was running away from nazis and half of his friends went this way over the railway tracks and half of his friends went this way over the railway tracks.

00:21:58.976 --> 00:22:01.082
For whatever reason he went this way.

00:22:01.082 --> 00:22:03.526
All the people who went this way died.

00:22:03.526 --> 00:22:05.950
Well, they got captured and killed.

00:22:06.790 --> 00:22:14.172
Little moments like that, not little, but so what is the line that leads to my youngest?

00:22:14.172 --> 00:22:24.950
Well, my grandfather, having been in those work camps, saw his family die, friends die, he starved, all sorts of terrible, terrible things.

00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:27.906
So what impact does that have on my father.

00:22:27.906 --> 00:22:40.060
He was raised in a household where my grandfather was largely absent, if not physically then emotionally probably didn't have a big part in raising him.

00:22:40.060 --> 00:22:43.929
So that trauma went from my grandfather to my father.

00:22:43.929 --> 00:23:02.473
My father raised me and tracing that trauma down to my marriage and then my youngest having two households to grow in, because not having a strong father role model led to me not understanding what relationship dynamic is.

00:23:02.473 --> 00:23:05.960
So that led to my youngest having two households.

00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:18.030
I think that's my mission and my values are around stopping a lot of that generational trauma from getting passed down to my kids.

00:23:18.820 --> 00:23:34.570
As you were telling that story, you took me back a little over five years ago and I wouldn't say, even still, that I was totally wrong in blaming her for a lot of the issues we had.

00:23:34.570 --> 00:23:40.094
But neither one of us really knew how to communicate effectively enough with the other person.

00:23:40.094 --> 00:23:46.548
And unfortunately that's a skillset of being married that you either have before you get married or that you develop during.

00:23:46.548 --> 00:24:11.951
But communication, I think, can never be internal, because I'm not a mind reader and neither is the other person, and so whatever I'm going through, if I don't know how to vocalize it or communicate it in some way you know a written form or interpretive dance or whatever my jam is it's never going to get addressed and it certainly won't meet my expectations, the way that it should be addressed, because I didn't communicate it well enough.

00:24:11.951 --> 00:24:15.107
I think that brings us back to the ownership piece that you talked about.

00:24:15.107 --> 00:24:21.584
And so now, similar to your point, my son he just turned 10, grows up in two different households.

00:24:21.584 --> 00:24:34.116
He just turned 10, grows up in two different households and one of the things that I stood on pretty early I'd say he was probably five or six I started thinking this isn't a good environment for anybody.

00:24:34.116 --> 00:24:48.430
The only way his mother and I seemed to know how to communicate at the time was by increasing volume and totally not meeting each other in the conversation, where we probably should have, and so the points that I would make I didn't feel like were addressed.

00:24:48.430 --> 00:24:55.609
The points that she was making I certainly wasn't addressing because I didn't care to hear it, I didn't care to listen and I certainly didn't care to respond appropriately.

00:24:55.609 --> 00:24:57.154
It just didn't occur to me.

00:24:57.154 --> 00:24:59.344
I felt like I wasn't being heard enough.

00:24:59.344 --> 00:25:11.712
So once we got divorced, it was uphill for me to process, because what I was hearing was well, this is what you wanted, this is what you asked for, and now somebody else is going to raise your son.

00:25:11.712 --> 00:25:18.287
You have to be okay with that, and if you knew how to do this better, or if you were a better father, we wouldn't be in this position.

00:25:18.287 --> 00:25:37.345
And so because of that, you don't get to say now and all these types of comments that at first I felt that they were unjustified and then, once I took a second to breathe and by second I mean a couple of years I started to realize objectively that there was some merit to those comments, because I would have to be okay with somebody else raising him.

00:25:37.345 --> 00:25:39.731
It's just natural, it's going to happen eventually.

00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:46.805
I did have to be okay with the circumstance that we found ourselves in because I did have seen affection in a relationship that was healthy.

00:25:46.805 --> 00:26:35.463
I saw affection in a relationship for the children to create this sort of suburb facade of affection, but it wasn't authentic, and so I didn't know how to do that, and it was inadvertent and it was unwitting, but it carried through to me, and so once I started to realize that the potential was there for him to receive that same lesson that I didn't want to teach, but was inevitably, invariably teaching, the only thing I could think of was well, this isn't healthy for anybody.

00:26:35.463 --> 00:26:44.861
To the same point you just brought up, though, the way that I started framing that problem set in my head after we got divorced was what do I really care about?

00:26:44.861 --> 00:26:45.824
What am I really upset about?

00:26:45.824 --> 00:26:54.563
That he's not going to know who I am, that he's not going to, because I was enlisted at the time and we were long distance for seven years, seven and a half years, and he just turned 10.

00:26:54.563 --> 00:27:00.554
And so what I was worried about was me not having an influence.

00:27:01.161 --> 00:27:12.164
Well, me worried about me is my pride, not his problem and I think once I started to catch on to that, it helped, and I started to understand that what I really cared about was was he safe, was he healthy?

00:27:12.164 --> 00:27:12.826
Was he happy?

00:27:12.826 --> 00:27:13.528
Was he learning?

00:27:13.528 --> 00:27:14.211
Was he loved?

00:27:14.211 --> 00:27:35.730
Was there some degree of self-reliance he was starting to build as he got older and I started to realize I could answer yes to all of those things, and then the circumstance that his mom had in her life whatever extent that meant, or anybody else in relationships with her around him, didn't matter so much anymore, because I could consistently answer yes to those points.

00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:40.751
And I think that was the time that I started to shift generationally.

00:27:40.751 --> 00:27:50.653
I started giving my parents I guess you could say acceptance that I didn't need to carry their baggage anymore, whatever grief and regret and resentment they had.

00:27:50.653 --> 00:27:52.022
I didn't have to harbor that.

00:27:52.022 --> 00:28:01.113
But I'm curious now, especially since you've already said that this was an awareness you've started to develop how has that impacted your values now?

00:28:01.113 --> 00:28:05.471
Because that's a tremendous growth cycle over the last, let's call it 15 years.

00:28:05.779 --> 00:28:08.209
So what are some of your values now then?

00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:15.871
All that having been said, because you're a totally different person- I can show you old pictures of me and I'm rather embarrassed by it.

00:28:15.871 --> 00:28:24.462
You mentioned a few minutes ago about superheroes, and the hero's journey is a big part of what I live today.

00:28:24.462 --> 00:28:28.749
I might be too much in the clouds here, so bring me down if you need to.

00:28:29.009 --> 00:28:29.270
Okay.

00:28:29.411 --> 00:28:33.884
There's stage one of human spiritual evolution and then stage two, stage one.

00:28:33.884 --> 00:28:40.928
We all go through it and it is where you're driven by emotion, so you run away from what feels bad to what feels good.

00:28:41.910 --> 00:28:47.223
Sure Pain and pleasure what feels bad to what feels good.

00:28:47.223 --> 00:28:48.707
Sure, pain and pleasure, pain and pleasure, good and bad.

00:28:48.707 --> 00:28:49.368
You know all of those principles.

00:28:49.368 --> 00:29:07.619
Stage two is where you operate from the heart and you recognize that in every situation there is equal good and bad and you choose what you want from it and bad.

00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:08.602
And you choose what you want from it.

00:29:08.602 --> 00:29:12.308
And being able to recognize that there are challenges and there are supports and, like I said, an equal amount in in everything.

00:29:12.308 --> 00:29:16.923
If you choose challenge, you're going to receive support.

00:29:16.923 --> 00:29:20.590
If you choose support, you're going to receive challenge.

00:29:21.353 --> 00:29:25.231
So in the hero's journey, the bottom part of it, the second half.

00:29:25.231 --> 00:29:33.544
So in the hero's journey, the bottom part of it, the second half of the hero's journey the hero has a death and renewal.

00:29:33.544 --> 00:29:37.040
And another way to say that and I just finished reading the book Iron John and I'd suggest it to all your readers and yourself.

00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:48.215
It's a great book the idea of katabasis and it's where you go through that death and renewal and become a different version of yourself.

00:29:48.215 --> 00:29:50.428
That's where the transformation happens.

00:29:50.428 --> 00:30:07.769
So the value I am following today is I seek out challenge, I do hard stuff so that the universe rewards me Whenever I go towards what's easy, the universe just smacks me down and hands me a lesson.

00:30:09.530 --> 00:30:11.980
Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

00:30:14.070 --> 00:30:20.324
Alrighty folks, if you're looking for more perspective and more podcast, you can check out Transacting Value on Reads Across America Radio.

00:30:20.324 --> 00:30:23.940
Listen in on iHeartRadio Odyssey and TuneIn.

00:30:25.950 --> 00:30:37.051
Whenever I go towards what's easy, the universe just smacks me down and hands me a lesson just smacks me down and hands me a lesson.

00:30:37.071 --> 00:30:46.436
Do you find that seeking out these challenges is a goal or a driver, or it's just sort of happens as it happens, and then you tend to choose the high road or the rocky road in hindsight.

00:30:46.917 --> 00:30:54.537
I'm in the middle of a challenge right now and I think old me would have been on that sea of emotion like when am I going to start to see the light?

00:30:54.537 --> 00:30:57.598
But now I'm like get your ass to work.

00:30:57.598 --> 00:31:00.297
That's the only way you're going to get through this.

00:31:00.297 --> 00:31:05.082
Go, burn off whatever you need to burn off in those difficult fires.

00:31:05.082 --> 00:31:06.855
That's the way through this.

00:31:06.855 --> 00:31:10.099
The difficult path is how you get through it.

00:31:10.099 --> 00:31:17.759
Being able to find the light in the darkness is a superpower, because then you're not stuck in your emotions.

00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:30.717
I don't think, as men were raised to really navigate emotions, that was true for me, and my divorce was the first really truly challenging, emotionally challenging thing I went through.

00:31:30.717 --> 00:31:41.423
And I'm now grateful for having gone through that divorce because it taught me to navigate my emotions and look for that light in the darkness.

00:31:42.171 --> 00:32:01.633
I spent most of my career with the Marine Corps in the infantry and hiking through whatever with radio antennas and packs and weapons, and then a platoon or a squad worth of dudes or whatever it is, through dense jungles and deserts and all sort of different terrain around the world, mountains even.

00:32:01.633 --> 00:32:37.523
And something to the points you just brought up that again you took me back and I thought it was pretty interesting, was that of all of the dense jungles and the harsher terrain that we went through, it was much easier to navigate, get radio reception, make decisions, gain clarity on what we were trying to accomplish if a controlled burn had taken place first, and you had mentioned to burn off whatever you need to, in sort of those fires and in that chaos and so that's where I went that it really starts to become more of a sort of metaphorical fire science.

00:32:37.523 --> 00:32:54.599
You know, you start to understand you're not creating wildfires, you're curating controlled burns, and I think that is the difference to growing new jungles or new pathways or whatever other analogy you want to make out of that story, and I think a lot of that.

00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:59.461
I'm going to call it opportunity that you attributed to good and bad decision-making.

00:32:59.461 --> 00:33:08.394
I'm going to disagree for a second and recommend you reframe as appropriate and inappropriate based on a certain time and place.

00:33:08.836 --> 00:33:12.692
And here's why when I hear that something's bad, I turn away from it.

00:33:12.692 --> 00:33:22.617
Your pain and pleasure analogy earlier, for example, it's bad, I don't want it, I'm going to ignore it or turn away from it or whatever, just throw it out to whatever impact I need to.

00:33:22.617 --> 00:33:25.392
But that doesn't mean I can't learn something from it.

00:33:25.392 --> 00:33:26.875
So now is it still bad?

00:33:26.875 --> 00:33:29.461
Well, not necessarily, and I think that.

00:33:29.461 --> 00:33:33.621
Not that I'm the most mature person in the world I wouldn't say that I am at all.

00:33:33.621 --> 00:33:35.917
I still watch cartoons and play video games.

00:33:35.917 --> 00:33:44.984
But to be able to say that I look back on the things I initially thought were bad experiences and still think they're bad, I don't.

00:33:45.630 --> 00:33:57.875
I look back on the majority of my experiences now and I'm still learning through the rest, but the majority as just being inappropriate or inappropriately framed as a problem set, and so I haven't learned that lesson yet.

00:33:57.875 --> 00:34:03.096
But that doesn't mean there's not a lesson there to learn, and I just got to be older to figure it out.

00:34:03.096 --> 00:34:04.300
I'm not there yet.

00:34:04.300 --> 00:34:07.031
It's not a me that's ready to address those problems and traumas.

00:34:07.031 --> 00:34:18.340
And so I think the appropriateness of those opportunities is maybe more what's relevant or, for me, what I'm finding to be more resonant as I grow older of any of those traumas.

00:34:18.981 --> 00:34:21.121
This is a good time for me to learn that lesson.

00:34:21.121 --> 00:34:26.326
And then somehow I don't try, I do, it just happens and I'm like, oh well, that's, that's how I'm going to use that for.

00:34:26.326 --> 00:34:28.487
So I'm really still just a jellyfish.

00:34:28.487 --> 00:34:30.190
I just got longer legs now.

00:34:30.190 --> 00:34:31.936
You know you can't take it out of the boy, I suppose.

00:34:31.936 --> 00:34:33.762
But then we're back to ownership.

00:34:33.762 --> 00:34:44.306
And so what are your thoughts on this reframing of good and bad occasions, experiences, opportunities, whatever to appropriate, inappropriate?

00:34:44.306 --> 00:34:46.998
Is there any relevance there to your experience?

00:34:47.570 --> 00:34:49.898
Can you define inappropriate and appropriate for me?

00:34:50.710 --> 00:34:59.077
I'd say it's based on a willingness to learn something and then a time and place in life, maybe temporarily, spatially Appropriate to who you are in that moment.

00:34:59.077 --> 00:35:01.577
Can you do something with that experience?

00:35:01.577 --> 00:35:04.677
Appropriate, Respective to who you are in that moment?

00:35:04.677 --> 00:35:06.416
Can you do something with it?

00:35:06.416 --> 00:35:08.456
Good, bad or indifferent in the beginning?

00:35:08.456 --> 00:35:10.818
If you can't, inappropriate?

00:35:11.409 --> 00:35:15.822
I think that comes down to decision, though do I want to tackle this or not?

00:35:15.822 --> 00:35:21.170
There's another analogy I'd like to use here, and that's the idea of the feather, the brick and the truck.

00:35:21.170 --> 00:35:29.625
To your point, yes, you're a jellyfish and you're on a current, and life throws things at you.

00:35:29.625 --> 00:35:30.952
You have no choice.

00:35:30.952 --> 00:35:32.076
It's going to happen.

00:35:32.076 --> 00:35:38.056
All you can do is react to it, and it's the reaction that makes all the difference.

00:35:38.056 --> 00:35:40.161
What you resist persists.

00:35:40.862 --> 00:35:48.871
So we're going to keep re-experiencing the same situation or the same lesson until you've learned the lesson.

00:35:48.871 --> 00:35:51.556
So, feather, brick, truck, yeah.

00:35:51.556 --> 00:35:56.652
First life gives you the feather and it goes hey, pay attention to this thing here.

00:35:56.652 --> 00:36:00.300
99.9% of us ignore it at that stage.

00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:06.920
Then life throws a brick at us, and it's a little harder to ignore the brick, but most of us can go.

00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:08.630
I can deal with it later.

00:36:08.630 --> 00:36:15.478
You know, this other thing over here is more important and then the truck comes along and creams us, and we have no choice but to pay attention to that right then.

00:36:15.478 --> 00:36:20.699
And there, yeah, okay, you're going to repeat the lesson until you've learned it.

00:36:20.699 --> 00:36:39.400
And what I'm realizing is I can push that lesson down the road, but it's going to be bigger, so the sooner I catch it and the sooner I listen to what's inside of it, the quicker I can move on to bigger and more challenging things.

00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:45.784
Well then it's on the recognition of the problem, because if you don't view it as an issue, you're still not going to pay attention to it.

00:36:45.784 --> 00:36:47.985
Exactly, okay, well, okay.

00:36:47.985 --> 00:36:50.286
So then, when the student's ready, the teacher will appear.

00:36:50.967 --> 00:36:56.139
Absolutely, and it's learning to listen because so many of us just even the truck.

00:36:56.139 --> 00:36:58.998
We try to run away from the truck to bring it home, to divorce.

00:36:58.998 --> 00:37:07.699
That's how I think men end up sitting on the couch, you know, drinking away their weekends because they're still running away from that lesson.

00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:13.460
They're still running away from the truck when it's better to face it head on as soon as you can.

00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:17.608
Whatever that lesson is, it's better to face it head on as soon as you can.

00:37:17.628 --> 00:37:22.311
Whatever that lesson is, it's going to stick around.

00:37:22.311 --> 00:37:23.233
Okay, well, now you're facing divorce.

00:37:23.233 --> 00:37:25.398
Let's say, in the military you're at any point in your career where you're a contractor.

00:37:25.398 --> 00:37:34.036
It's not guaranteed that you're going to get job retention or job security, because at the end of generally four years you do or don't stay in.

00:37:34.036 --> 00:37:38.860
You can volunteer, but let's say you have the decision either way and so you're basically a contractor.

00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:42.597
And so then what Do you sit and dwell on?

00:37:42.597 --> 00:37:56.235
I have to pay child support and groceries and bills and utilities, move to a new city and state, most likely if you decide to get out and then start all over again, a new industry, try to figure out who you are in the process, because DOD is not telling you anymore.

00:37:56.235 --> 00:38:13.842
So you got to figure out you and what's more authentic to you or not I guess that's an option too and then compounding, compounding, compounding this interest, day in and day out, and day in and day out, until finally you sit there on your front porch with a 12 pack of Miller Lite and you're like well, this is where it is right now.

00:38:13.842 --> 00:38:19.500
And then you work all week, maybe a blue-collar job, maybe civil servant, maybe the stereotypical jobs.

00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:30.960
Service members tend to go for right, service-oriented positions in their societies, something that still has duty and honor and helping people right, and so you get one of those jobs and the cycle repeats.

00:38:34.329 --> 00:38:40.179
But when you start to realize and reframe that what I'm going through is something I can learn and build off of, that doesn't keep the lights on, that doesn't keep the groceries paid for.

00:38:40.179 --> 00:38:43.994
It might make you feel better and help you sleep better at night, but is it really worth it?

00:38:43.994 --> 00:38:46.891
Because you've got other things in the more immediate future to deal with.

00:38:46.891 --> 00:38:58.016
So how do you recommend making time or creating a process or a structure or a system to have that luxury where you're able to process and sort through some of this stuff?

00:38:58.016 --> 00:38:58.797
That's what.

00:38:58.818 --> 00:38:59.961
I'm in the middle of right now.

00:39:00.230 --> 00:39:00.530
Okay.

00:39:01.434 --> 00:39:02.657
I'm still figuring that out.

00:39:02.657 --> 00:39:14.061
So after my divorce I said I wasn't going to let this beat me and I felt like an ATM because it came down to, this is how much child support you owe.

00:39:14.061 --> 00:39:16.831
And it was like, all right, screw you.

00:39:16.831 --> 00:39:21.001
If I'm going to be an ATM, I'm going to be the best damn ATM ever.

00:39:21.001 --> 00:39:24.215
I'm going to go make so much money that it doesn't matter.

00:39:24.215 --> 00:39:31.300
I mean, at one point I was working three jobs just to pay legal bills, pay for the mortgage and pay child support.

00:39:31.300 --> 00:39:35.731
After my, the legal battles were over, I was still making good money.

00:39:35.731 --> 00:39:37.474
So I went.

00:39:37.474 --> 00:39:39.239
I bought a nice house.

00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:41.603
I bought a first brand new car I ever bought.

00:39:41.603 --> 00:39:42.931
I had everything.

00:39:43.592 --> 00:40:02.300
And then one day I was sitting at my desk and I was just struggling with work I was in tech before this and I had this thought and I don't even want to call it a thought, it was this whisper in the back of my head and it was if you don't make a change, you're going to get sick.

00:40:02.300 --> 00:40:05.637
It was one of those thoughts and I didn't ignore it.

00:40:05.637 --> 00:40:10.681
So, with my now wife, I talked to her about it.

00:40:10.681 --> 00:40:13.860
I told her, you know, kind of has me freaked out.

00:40:13.860 --> 00:40:21.304
So we sold the house, we sold my car, sold the contents of our house, and that's extreme.

00:40:21.304 --> 00:40:27.070
Well, at the same time it was such a weird convergence of everything.

00:40:27.070 --> 00:40:28.235
I had that thought.

00:40:28.235 --> 00:40:33.340
Plus, I had started a fractional CTO business so like part-time chief technology officer and I did really well at first.

00:40:33.340 --> 00:40:36.117
I had started a fractional CTO business so like part-time chief technology officer, and I did really well at first.

00:40:36.117 --> 00:40:44.740
I had three clients and then all within a month of each other, I lost all three of them and we had some savings and we lived on savings for a bit.

00:40:44.740 --> 00:40:49.717
But it was starting to get to the end of that savings and we were like, what are we going to do here?

00:40:49.717 --> 00:40:55.632
So that's when we agreed to sell the house and we had always talked about going and traveling.

00:40:56.054 --> 00:41:05.320
So right now I'm in Mexico and just figuring out what I'm here in life for and it's helping men through difficult times like that.

00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:13.447
So, to answer your question, I don't know, man, like there's, there is a trade, trade off between money and doing what you're here for.

00:41:13.447 --> 00:41:21.697
But I'm going to choose what I'm here for because there's, otherwise I'm going to get that truck and I don't want that truck again.

00:41:21.697 --> 00:41:24.097
I went through that with my marriage.

00:41:24.811 --> 00:41:32.481
It takes a hell of a lot of conviction and a hell of a lot of courage, and there have been a lot of nights where I'm like what am I doing with my life?

00:41:32.481 --> 00:41:36.653
There have been a lot of nights where I'm like what am I doing with my life?

00:41:36.653 --> 00:41:38.657
So to go back to that porch drinking a 12 pack man, I'm.

00:41:38.657 --> 00:41:40.440
I'm not going back to that.

00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:52.338
I'm not going back to that place where I'm not living true to myself, yeah, my kids were taken care of, they're fed, they're safe, They've got everything they need.

00:41:52.338 --> 00:42:00.963
I think one of my roles as a father is to be a superhero to them, so they have something to live up to.

00:42:02.670 --> 00:42:05.099
All right, folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

00:42:06.751 --> 00:42:09.641
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00:42:37.670 --> 00:42:44.204
One of my roles as a father is to be a superhero to them, so they have something to live up to.

00:42:44.204 --> 00:42:47.717
So either I'm going to make it here or I'm not.

00:42:47.717 --> 00:42:51.971
I don't know what's going to happen here, but I'm going to do my best.

00:42:52.751 --> 00:42:53.472
I've got a buddy.

00:42:53.472 --> 00:42:55.114
He runs a homestead.

00:42:55.114 --> 00:43:17.630
Well, he and his wife run a homestead in North Carolina, just south of the Virginia line, a couple acres enough to sustain them and their family, not like a commercial thing, okay, and he maybe heard this from somewhere, maybe made it up, I'm not entirely sure.

00:43:17.630 --> 00:43:19.215
So, dax, if you hear this, thanks for your insight, man.

00:43:19.215 --> 00:43:22.382
But he said something to your point that I thought was pretty interesting His perspective of parenting.

00:43:22.382 --> 00:43:24.588
He said my goal he has a son and two daughters.

00:43:24.588 --> 00:43:35.911
He said my goal is not to be somebody that my son looks up to, but to be somebody that my daughters look into when they start dating to find somebody else.

00:43:35.911 --> 00:43:46.802
And the role, he said, of my wife is to be the kind of woman she wants our son to try to search for in those qualities and values, virtues, those kinds of things.

00:43:46.802 --> 00:44:01.309
And I'd never thought about it from any other perspective than obviously dads to sons, ever thought about it from any other perspective than obviously dads to sons, not dads to daughters, new husbands.

00:44:01.309 --> 00:44:28.099
And so it was an interesting reframe for me not to negate your point but to compliment it that there's definitely some gravity there and that's all the same sort of point of being a person of consequence to anybody, or influence or impact, or whatever words you want to use to anybody, and the only way, for example, a slingshot works is by increasing friction to go further later, otherwise you just fall Right.

00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:45.608
And I think that's the sort of reframe around conflict, or maybe even anger in the moment or frustration or whatever, that we don't have generally speaking in my experience as men, and the crazy thing is we grow up around it, because what outlets do we generally have as kids?

00:44:45.648 --> 00:44:57.226
And I'm guessing I've never been to Toronto, but I'm guessing some sort of sports, probably contact sports, or the gym or some other form of aggressive type outlet, generally speaking.

00:44:57.226 --> 00:45:09.422
And I think that's where it stops, as opposed to saying these are all forms of conflict and that doesn't always mean there's a terrible, horrible, cataclysmic, negative outcome.

00:45:09.422 --> 00:45:10.932
Did you have fun at the game?

00:45:10.932 --> 00:45:34.181
Great, there it is Two teams fighting it out, right, like there's still a way, I think, we can reframe the narrative around conflict or anger or frustration, and how we can use them in a positive light, not that they're a bad thing, but to accept them and to own them, and then the times and places for our responses to make it well as appropriate as possible to timing, or inappropriate as it could be.

00:45:34.181 --> 00:45:41.318
I think that journey you're describing, the challenge you're describing, is a pretty cool point.

00:45:41.318 --> 00:45:43.876
If you turn away from it, part of your soul dies.

00:45:43.876 --> 00:45:45.442
I think I heard you say yeah.

00:45:46.030 --> 00:45:55.552
Yeah, it is a pretty, you know, wildly powerful thing, and it doesn't have to be this crazy, you know woo-woo spiritual thing that softens you up.

00:45:55.552 --> 00:46:11.938
I think it makes you more holistic of a superhero to accept it and just to own it and take it for what it is, and you, as a person, I think, are then better able or more apt to assume your strengths and grow into your own sense of self.

00:46:11.938 --> 00:46:31.414
So, jeff, let me ask you this real quick, man, I'm curious and this is really, I guess, for the sake of time, my second to last question but of all of these experiences we've discussed and all these perceptions and processes that you've worked through, what effect has any or all of those things had actually on your sense of self and self-worth?

00:46:31.414 --> 00:46:37.938
Maybe more worthy of the lessons, or more worthy of the experiences, or more likely to handle them effectively?

00:46:37.938 --> 00:46:38.378
I don't know.

00:46:38.378 --> 00:46:39.342
However, you want to take that.

00:46:40.251 --> 00:46:59.958
I've been through some pretty wild stuff at this point and just recognizing, I get seasick in a boat but I love diving and usually you do two dives and you go back to the boat and you have to sit there and I just get so sick when I'm sitting between the dives.

00:46:59.958 --> 00:47:09.693
But the trick is to look at the horizon and if you look at those challenges any challenge, I don't care what it is you got to look at the horizon and just see what the middle is.

00:47:09.693 --> 00:47:12.197
You know you're going up and down and you just got to.

00:47:12.197 --> 00:47:19.268
You just got to look at that horizon, otherwise you're going up and down and and you just gotta, you just gotta look at that horizon, otherwise you're gonna make yourself sick.

00:47:19.288 --> 00:47:23.498
Being in a new relationship, I really value kindness.

00:47:23.498 --> 00:47:46.052
At this point I think I went from that player I mentioned earlier, player versus player, that environment where you're getting snipes in as much as possible to lift each other up, and I talked about how both partners in a relationship bring something to the table, and my new wife brought kindness to me.

00:47:46.052 --> 00:47:48.293
I can't go back to that old life.

00:47:48.293 --> 00:48:06.628
I value kindness so much these days, having that peace coming home and having that calmness and peace and someone who supports you is incredible and much different from what I've had the rest of my life.

00:48:06.628 --> 00:48:11.661
Yeah, I'm not sure I'm answering your question, but that's kind of where that thought took me.

00:48:12.010 --> 00:48:13.496
No, I think it makes a huge difference.

00:48:13.496 --> 00:48:22.170
You're able to reprioritize now in a way that makes sense for you and that, for example, the first point you brought up when we started this conversation.

00:48:22.170 --> 00:48:40.635
You thought, or seemed to convey, that you thought what you were getting was what you deserved, it was the best you could have because it's what you grew accustomed to, and now you see yourself as worthy of different and receiving things better that suit you better.

00:48:40.635 --> 00:48:58.344
That's exactly the answer I was looking for Absolutely the benefit to all of those things you know, facing challenges that you've described and trying to identify what to do with them, and, moreover, the generational trauma that you were describing how to work through some of that stuff and sort of say goodbye to that legacy is huge.

00:48:58.344 --> 00:49:08.259
The interesting thing, I think, that came out of this for me is the saying right, it takes a village to raise a child, but at what point do adults stop being children?

00:49:09.050 --> 00:49:18.996
And so I think in two fronts, stage one and stage two right, yeah, exactly All through stage one we're all children, yeah, but not everybody becomes an adult.

00:49:19.458 --> 00:49:30.159
Well, sure, and so then, externally, extrinsically, we have actual physical people or digital people in this case, you know come into our lives and have conversations.

00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:36.646
I think that help us work through some of that stuff or to reframe some of that stuff for other people and enhance that sort of village.

00:49:36.646 --> 00:49:58.179
But I think, internally, intrinsically, once we're able to identify all of these experiences and moments and memories and whatever impact they've had on us, and we can better assimilate that sort of mental village to further grow and build us up, I don't think it needs to stop with hey, can you pick up the kids from school or help change the diapers or help pay the mortgage, so to speak.

00:49:58.179 --> 00:49:59.510
Super cool man.

00:49:59.510 --> 00:50:10.971
I appreciate the amount of insight that you were willing to convey, or maybe confront, as we went through some of this, and I really appreciate your authenticity and I'll tell you this not for nothing.

00:50:10.971 --> 00:50:25.976
I really appreciate your shortcomings and challenges and conflict and everything that you went through, because it got you here and I think there's a certain degree of credit where credit's due, that's got to get paid to all of those things as well.

00:50:25.976 --> 00:50:28.074
So thanks.

00:50:28.717 --> 00:50:29.199
Well, thank you.

00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:51.900
To add one more point to your earlier question around my values, I think one more thing that evolved from having gone through those situations is there's a fighter in here and I don't think I realized like a warrior, I don't think I had a connection to earlier on, and I think men need to be in contact with that Um.

00:50:51.900 --> 00:51:03.512
To go back to that book, iron John, there's the lover, the warrior and the King Um and that's in in all of us and not all of us get in contact with all three of those.

00:51:03.512 --> 00:51:09.731
So it's my goal to build as strong of a connection to those three as as I can.

00:51:10.112 --> 00:51:10.434
It's funny.

00:51:10.434 --> 00:51:17.257
You mentioned that you know no lover and no king in any type of role is going to start a fire, let alone a controlled burn.

00:51:17.257 --> 00:51:18.119
It's too dangerous.

00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:20.612
So I think you're exactly right.

00:51:20.612 --> 00:51:27.516
At some point somebody else is in there saying, forget it, we're burning it down and then you start to recover, you know.

00:51:27.516 --> 00:51:29.503
So yeah, I like that.

00:51:29.503 --> 00:51:30.224
J eff.

00:51:30.224 --> 00:51:41.137
My last question, really to close this out for anybody that wants to get in touch with you as a client, as a resource, as just somebody to reach out to and talk to where do they go?

00:51:41.137 --> 00:51:42.121
How do they do it?

00:51:42.992 --> 00:51:42.992
Divorce-daddy.

00:51:42.992 --> 00:51:43.878
com.

00:51:43.878 --> 00:51:50.322
I've got my divorce compass to get you started as you go through, as you start on your process.

00:51:50.322 --> 00:51:51.876
It's on the front page.

00:51:51.876 --> 00:51:54.358
Just drop your email in there, and you'll get an email.

00:51:54.358 --> 00:52:03.340
I've got free coaching on the first Tuesday of every month and I sporadically post to a YouTube channel.

00:52:04.612 --> 00:52:05.635
There it is the growth.

00:52:05.635 --> 00:52:13.199
Well, for anybody new to the show and obviously continuing listeners to Transacting Value, depending on the player you're streaming this conversation on.

00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.833
You can click see more.

00:52:17.833 --> 00:52:18.396
You can click show more.

00:52:18.396 --> 00:52:19.481
There's a drop down description for this conversation.

00:52:19.481 --> 00:52:21.451
Those are the show notes and in there you'll find links to Divorce-daddy.

00:52:21.451 --> 00:52:22.614
com.

00:52:22.614 --> 00:52:29.672
Obviously, you'll be able to reach out to Jeff and get in touch that way If it's easier for you, or just obviously go directly to his website and make it happen.

00:52:29.672 --> 00:52:32.014
But, Jeff, again I appreciate your time.

00:52:32.014 --> 00:52:37.320
I appreciate you giving us a bit more time to finish out this conversation and maybe what you had intended initially.

00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:38.201
It was good.

00:52:38.201 --> 00:52:40.902
I really appreciated the opportunity, so thanks.

00:52:41.503 --> 00:52:43.505
Thank you, Porter, and thanks for pushing back.

00:52:43.505 --> 00:52:45.626
It helps me clarify my positions.

00:52:50.969 --> 00:52:51.331
Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:51.331 --> 00:52:53.324
Well, like I said, that's, I think that's what humans are good for and maybe best at, so you know.

00:52:53.324 --> 00:52:54.170
Thanks for giving me the opportunity.

00:52:54.170 --> 00:52:59.197
I enjoyed the conversation very much Thank you yeah, me too and to everybody else who tuned into our conversation.

00:52:59.197 --> 00:53:04.336
Thank you, guys, for tuning in, listening, staying with us throughout and, obviously, to our continued listeners.

00:53:04.336 --> 00:53:06.338
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00:53:06.338 --> 00:53:10.992
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00:53:14.976 --> 00:53:21.864
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00:53:25.007 --> 00:53:27.637
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00:53:30.389 --> 00:53:32.030
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